If a student gets 9 for maths GCSE, is A for A level always possible?

[Bankholidayweekend]

DD has decided on two of her A level subjects, but is less decided on the third. DD knows what she wants to do at university. Her first two choices are geared towards that. No specific subject needed for the third A level, but DD has ambitions to apply for Oxford, so third subject needs to be something she can get a high grade in if she is to have any chance of achieving her goal. DD is trying to decide between maths and chemistry as third A level. DD was initially inclined to choose maths. DS and I felt quite wary of that choice after the experience of DS who has just finished A levels. DS had grade 8 for maths GCSE and A* for chemistry. DS's view is that with chemistry DD can pretty much assure herself of an A by putting the work in, whereas with maths you can spend hours and hours studying only to find that you still can't answer the question, because if you're not the sort of person who naturally "gets" maths, you may still not spot what you need to do to answer the question. And DS's experience is that getting grade 8 at GCSE is no guarantee that you will fall into the group who "get" maths at A level. So we have steered DD towards chemistry rather than maths. But that was before GCSE results day. DD has got grade 9 in maths and 8 for chemistry. I'm now wondering whether a 9 at GCSE is pretty much always indicative of a student who will be capable of getting a high grade at A level maths. Thoughts welcome!

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

Please can a current maths teacher comment on this thread because with the new revamped A level being sat for the first time this year, only their opinion is relevant.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Please can a current maths teacher comment on this thread because with the new revamped A level being sat for the first time this year, only their opinion is relevant.

I don't think I've seen @noblegiraffe on this thread, she's the expert! I don't know of any chemistry teachers on MN, it would presumably be useful to hear from one too.

Another factor which I'm not sure has been mentioned is to consider whether the standard of maths and chemistry teaching is the same in the sixth form your DD will attend. It could lean in either direction (or neither). My DD decided against chemistry as her 4th subject because the school, although generally excellent, was having specific issues with chemistry because of a combination of maternity leave and ill health

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

Noble is probably busy with results etc but it is worth waiting for his/her or another maths teachers opinion OP.

[Bankholidayweekend]

Thank you all for the really helpful comments. I am increasingly thinking that I have made a mistake to steer DD towards chemistry instead of maths, and that she should go with her first instinct which was to take maths at A level.

To answer a few questions that other posters have asked:
Yes, we can afford to pay a private tutor for extra help if that turns out to be necessary. We did that for DS for A level maths. (Even with the extra tuition, DS still found maths the hardest A level subject.)

Re the possibility of taking A level English literature, that was actually DD's lowest grade at GCSE (though still a grade 7, so not a bad result!) DD will definitely not want to take that at A level.

Re humanities subjects, the only humanities subject which DD took to GCSE was RE (which was compulsory). DD would definitely prefer to take maths (or chemistry) over RE.

I have not heard any complaints about the quality of maths teaching at the school. Although DS found maths at A level hard, he did not suggest this was due to poor teaching. I don't know the breakdown of A level maths grades for DS's year overall, but I do know that at least one student got A* for both maths and further maths.

For chemistry, there is one teacher whose teaching leaves a lot to be desired. The other chemistry teachers are good. I suspect DD's results-conscious school would avoid letting the less good teacher loose on an A level class, but I guess we can't rule it out, so it is a point to bear in mind.

[catndogslife]

Personally I think you are being a bit too swayed by your ds opinion. If he is one of the first cohort to take the new A level Maths then he will probably know more about the course than posters whose dcs took the A level course years ago, but the first year of a new course is always more difficult for the students and staff. In 2 years time there will be more experienced teachers and more resources to help your dd whereas in the first year of a new syllabus there are struggles due to lack of past papers etc.
Speaking as a former Chemistry teacher there is a correlation between Chemistry and Maths. 20% of the marks for A level Chemistry are Maths skills based and in my teaching experience students who are not taking A level Maths have to work much harder to obtain the top grades in A level Chemistry than those who are taking both subjects. This is because students who are not taking A level Maths are more rusty with their Maths skills rather than that the specific knowledge of A level Maths is needed. ( I hope this makes sense).
As a parent I do also agree with those who say that she should do whichever subject she prefers the most. Taking an A level in a subject that you don't like this much or that someone else has chosen for you isn't a great experience for student or teacher.

[LarkDescending]

Sorry for the curveball, but if she isn’t absolutely sure about Maths or Chemistry is something like Economics a possibility? It sounds as though would be well set for it with her abilities.

Back in the day (mid-80s) I was also a keen linguist making similar choices. I ended up doing French, German, History & Economics at A-level - and surprised myself by enjoying Economics so much that I ended up at Oxford as a PPEist rather than a modern linguist.

[MsAwesomeDragon]

I am a current maths teacher and commented earlier on in the thread.

If she enjoys maths and is willing to work at it she has a very good chance of getting an A/A. The one pupil in my class that have just done their A Levels who came in with a 9 got an A. We had 2 in the other class who came in with 9s, one got an A and the other got a C, guess which one worked hard for 2 years and which one thought they could coast and it would be easy.

The new A Level is hard!! But also the grade boundaries so far have been low. To get the highest grades you don't actually need to be able to answer every question, you do need to answer quite a lot of the questions but one or two tough questions won't drop your grades massively as long as you can answer most of them.

[brilliotic]

The fact that your DD had to work for her 9 would fill me with confidence rather than doubts.

People who believe that maths is something that can be learned through hard work do better at maths than people who believe that everybody has some sort of 'innate' ability for maths, and will, sooner or later, 'hit their ceiling', at which point no amount of hard work will make any difference anymore.
This mindset, if you will, is a strong predictor for success in maths.

There are lots of anecdotes on this thread from people who sailed through maths until GCSE but then at some point during A-levels 'hit their ceiling'.
So, no, you cannot assume that if you found maths easy at GCSE you will be successful at A-level too. Maths at A-level requires different skills that may or may not come easily to you if you found GCSE maths easy.
But they are skills that can be learned.
Though if you encounter 'hard' maths for the first time, and immediately think - 'oh, looks like I hit my ceiling' - then chances are you won't put the necessary work in. Chances are you won't even know how! Because you never had to before. And you believe there is no point, as you've hit your ceiling. You've never made the experience of mastering a maths topic that originally seemed incomprehensible through sheer hard work. You think it cannot be done. You've reached the end of your innate ability.

If however, like OPs DD, you have experience of unlocking maths skills through hard work, then some new and differently hard maths topic will mean a challenge. But not the end of the road!

[Owensarmadillo]

Excellent post brilliotic
Dd taught me that exact point. I always said I was rubbish at maths. I was frightened of it certainly and I’d give up quickly and used the ‘ I’m rubbish at it’ in defence . Scraped a C at O level back in the day.
Dd from the outset saw maths as fun, a puzzle , a challenge to be conquered and would not give up until it was sorted. It was a completely different mindset to my own.
She worked her socks off, has achieved a 9 in it and now it’s one of her A level choices in September.

[zzzzzzzx]

My DD did her GCSEs last year and got an 8 (and was exactly on the grade boundary). We think she wouldn't be capable of a top grade at A level maths. Her friend got a much higher 8 and struggles with A level maths and has a tutor but just got an A at the AS. Her other friend who got a 9 is fine with the A level maths (predicted A*) but has just dropped Further Maths because she is having to put too much work in to it to get a decent grade. I think your DD with 9 should be fine but definitely go with the one she likes the most.

[noblegiraffe]

There was some analysis a few years ago that put Chemistry as the hardest A-level, but obviously that was before the reforms.

There’s a tool here that you can look at that maps average GCSE points to actual A-level grades achieved last year but with a mishmash of pre and post-reform GCSE and A-levels it’s not going to give definitive answers. It does seem to suggest that really high fliers across the board at GCSE are most likely to go onto an A at chemistry but an A* at maths. Sadly I don’t think there’s anything recent that maps GCSE result in a specific subject onto A-level result.

www.dropbox.com/s/jklricdd7r0rkn0/TMs_2018A_live%20%281%29.xlsx?dl=0

I just looked at my school’s A-level results. Our kids who started on GCSE grade 9 got a range of results, and one who missed an A was a really hard worker so there are no guarantees.

[Bankholidayweekend]

Thank you for the further responses. Lots of food for thought!

Noble I assume your hard worker who started from grade 9 and didn't get an A did manage a B?

LarkDescending DD has not expressed any interest in economics, so I think maths or chemistry (-I am increasingly thinking maths) will suit her better.

catndogslife you are probably right that I am being overly swayed by DS's experience. I have perhaps also been swayed by my own experience of what is easy or difficult.

[noblegiraffe]

Yes, they got a B.

[CraftyGin]

Everyone has a ceiling for Maths. For some, that may be GCSE.

[LizziesTwin]

Neither of my daughters are naturals at maths, one was in the bottom set of her super selective but she wanted to do maths A level and worked her socks off. She said lots of people who’d never had to try at maths gave it up as they weren’t used to putting the work in. She scraped an A at A level. Youngest daughter has always had to work hard at everything to get high marks and did so at A level, she was just under the A* boundary in this year’s exams. Their lazy idle brother has always been much better at maths them and got a A at AS and then didn’t do much work and got a B at A level. Both girls said that the good thing about maths was no essays, no extra reading and you could just practice practice practice, which they both did.

[berlinbabylon]

If she's a gifted linguist the languages will be easy and she'll have plenty of time to devote to Maths. Sounds like a great combination to me.

[Kilash]

I would think if she wants to do languages and is doing 2 at A level she will be very sought after, so I wouldn't think it really mattered! My neice did French, italian, Maths and Physics (she could not quite commit to languages in Y 12 and wanted options left open), then dropped Physics after AS and was offered every uni she applied for.

Languages are in decline so well done her!

[Ligresa]

Mfls are hard to get A*s in as the grade boundaries are so high due to the amount of native speakers that take them.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I would think if she wants to do languages and is doing 2 at A level she will be very sought after, so I wouldn't think it really mattered!

If she particularly wants to try for Oxford, then the third grade being an A does matter, the subject doesn't - hence the OPs question. For Cambridge MML there are high grade requirements but mostly only one language is required, the other can be studied ab initio - not relevant to the OPs DD but might be of interest to others https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/mmlsubjectt_requirements.pdf

Mfls are hard to get As in as the grade boundaries are so high due to the amount of native speakers that take them.*

The stats are in the link I posted somewhere upthread.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

Before making a decision look into the modules offered by the school for maths. My school forced us to do mechanics alongside the required core modules.

There's no choice in the new A level syllabus. (Please correct me maths teachers if I'm wrong!)

I think your dd has to actually make her own mind up here, and do whatever subject she wants.

FWIW, my older 3 have all done maths A level, and my 4th is about to start. It's been all their easiest A level in terms of time and work, and that's what I anticipate for dd3 as well. She got an 8 last week and I should think she'll get an A in two years time.

[noblegiraffe]

Yep, in the new A-level you have to study Mechanics and Statistics, there’s no choice any more.

[MollyButton]

Maths goes much better with MFL - and will be very different.
And although it can be harder to get "marks" in Maths, the grade boundaries this year were much lower to reflect that. She shouldn't go into the exam expecting to solve every question - but more make a good fist at them.