Music grade 8 at top schools (Wycombe Abbey, St Paul's Girls, etc)

[Star555]

On average, by what year (before/after GCSE?) do pupils pass ABRSM/Trinity Grade 8 music exams in order to be in the top symphony orchestras at schools like WA and SPGS? Is it "normal" for musically-high-achieving girls to go for ABRSM diplomas beyond Grade 8, even if they are not planning for a music career?

[Glaciferous]

DD is at SPGS and a distinctly average (for the school) Grade 5 on her first instrument. She still gets lots of opportunities to play in groups and individually. There are formal evening music concerts every term, but also smaller less formal teas (eg string tea, singing tea) so absolutely everyone who wants to will get the chance to perform. For the teas, anyone can sign themselves up, you just have to have a piece you want to perform. There are lots of non-auditioned groups and orchestras for every instrument as well as the really high-flying ones.

[NellyBarney]

The top orchestra will be filled primarily by music scholars who will realistically have achieved grade 8 by year 8. Many will go on and will have finished diploma before GCSE. It's not unheard of that children enter year 8 as music scholars having already finished their diploma before end of year 8.

[NellyBarney]

*enter year 9!

[WhyAmIPayingFees]

Abingdon has a very strong first orchestra currently on tour in Japan and a good second orchestra. There is a range of abilities but grade 8 by GCSE is not unusual at all and a few boys have grade 8 when they arrive in year 7 and get their diploma before GCSEs. Sharing out movements of piano concertos is bordering on routine.

[Kashali]

Sherry

It's usually the parents that are driven, ime.
I think the level is so high because people try for scholarships and bursaries, so the level gets higher every year.
These schools have a higher entrance level ito grades than the specialist music schools have. It's all about getting grades in these schools, not gaining good musicianship skills.
If you want a good musical education you really need to go specialist.

[Moominmammacat]

Oh no you don't ...

[Puppilongstrumpf]

The top orchestra will be filled primarily by music scholars who will realistically have achieved grade 8 by year 8. Many will go on and will have finished diploma before GCSE.

Or certainly by the end of 6th form.

[Fibbke]

Er, they love it? They go on to play in an orchestra at uni, they play for fun all their lives, they pass it on to their kids?

We are odd about people being good at things in this country.

[WhyAmIPayingFees]

Spot on Fibbke. Some ghastly attitudes on here.

[Glaciferous]

Hear hear, Fibbke.

[marytuda]

Did you guys read what Sherry wrote?? She's suggesting that a good many Grade 8 by Y8 private school music scholars may have been pushed horrendously by Tiger Parents, which they could later resent . . . . and for what? Obviously there are no statistics available but it doesn't seem to me an unreasonable supposition or question.
I have a musically talented child. Since he started lessons (courtesy of music charity at state primary school) I have been torn between a desire to Push Push Push so that he can attain the (private school) scholarship heights by Y6, and to just let him roll along playing when he feels like it in the belief that this way he will maintain his natural enthusiasm . . . In practice I've struck a balance; he practises no way enough, says received wisdom, for a child at his level, but at least does it daily and willingly partly because he can stop pretty much when he wants to.
And I could afford to take this lax approach because I did not insist - like one parent I know (DC G8 on two instruments in primary school) - he attend a top-private school on a music scholarship.
He has instead a music aptitude place at a good state comp and MDS funding for Saturday school. But he doesn't anticipate a musical career; it's a hobby, he says. Which is absolutely fine by me.

[ForeverbyJudyBlume]

I agree with every word Sherry says. There's nothing wrong with striving for excellence but that desire needs to come out of the child's passion for music, rather than being a parent tick box.

Like Sherry, I knew (at school way back when when very few kids played instruments to high levels) one girl whose relationship with her mother was destroyed because the mother pushed and pushed and pushed for her to get a music scholarship to SPGS. She did and hated every second at the school.

I see friends of my dcs at a competitive London school who are equally proficient musicians but who, now they're teenagers, also have terrible relationships with their parents because since they were three they've been forced to spend half the day sawing at their violin or whatever. It's really sad to witness.

[magnaconcordia]

People would say there is nothing wrong with achieving excellence if the desire is coming from a child, then if they see a child who achieves whatever grade on whatever instruments almost always they assume the child is being pushed unhealthily.

Obviously a healthy balance is important. But not all the high flyers are leading an unhealthy lifestyle. Mine enjoyed lots of sports, beavers/cubs, play date, traveling, etc, while achieving grade 8 distinction before entering secondary school. He certainly had a balanced, healthy childhood. But I know some parents who we don't know very well may think all he did and does is practice day in day out.

I've learnt not to pay attention to what others may think of us though. Very often they aren't important people to us anyway so no need to explain to be accepted. DS is happy and health, that all matters. But I do think sometimes why people always need to have explanation behind excellent achievements. Sometimes someone can do it without being chain locked under parents' supervision....

[ForeverbyJudyBlume]

No one's saying all high fliers are living unhealthy lives. I know kids who've done very well musically with barely any parental input - they genuinely love their instruments. That's how it should be. Unfortunately, I'd say those dc today are in a minority. It's very easy to spot which child belongs in which camp, not least by the expression on the child's face when they're playing solo or in an orchestra - the true musicians look as if they've been transported to another world. The others are mechanical and bored.

[Fibbke]

I've heard this argument so many times - one musical, one elite sport. I can assure you that the majority of my dcs friends who have done early music exams are happy healthy and successful and their parents are lovely. Sorry to disappoint you!

[magnaconcordia]

I seem to socialise with families like Fibbke then. It's not very very rare to reach grade 8 without tiger parents as Sherry19 claims. I understand foreverbyJudyBlume's point though. I can probably spot who is force or not by seeing their performance. Never tried before but I know what you mean.

[Glaciferous]

The thing is, I have no idea about Wycombe Abbey but it is certainly not true in my daughter's circle at SPGS (just finished Y7) that there are loads and loads of children who are grade 8 or diploma level. The vast majority of her peers are around grade 3-6 from what she says, which is certainly very achievable without any tiger mothering for an averagely musical child who is prepared to practise occasionally. And there are a few children who are clearly either music scholars or tried for it who are obviously grade 7+ standard when you hear them play. And while the top ensembles may be largely composed of music scholars (I don't know how many there are and some of the orchestras are pretty big so I doubt they are all scholars), there are so many others to join (many of a really high standard) that there really is a place for everyone to take part to whatever degree they wish to do so.

Yes, there's someone who is an actual composer at the age of 12 and clearly immensely talented. But there are plenty like my daughter, who practises for ten minutes a day and has joined several musical ensembles which she thoroughly enjoys - she has no musical ambitions beyond enjoying herself taking part and doesn't especially want to do any more grades as she doesn't much enjoy the exams.

As so very often, I do not recognise the picture painted by others who often seem to have no direct experience.

[marytuda]

Don't make assumptions Fibbke about what we think. No-one said there aren't exceptional children who can relatively effortlessly do Grade 8 aged 8 or so - in fact I know one, whose parent is a professional musician and is himself an absolute natural; a genius in more ways than one.
But I also know another mum (the one I mentioned above) whose kid had 2 grade 8s before aged 10, and when I asked her (a bit enviously) how she did it, she said "You push, push, push!" And added that her being a single mother helped (ie no dad around to distract the child . . )
Does he like it? I asked, a bit sceptical, adding my DC would flatly refuse the hours of practice. She made a face . . . "Well . . . he does now, that he appreciates being so good . . "
I met her child, then about 12, a few months later - in fact he played a solo with our modest (very amateur) mini-orchestra. He sounded absolutely gorgeous . . .but struck me as rather subdued and unsmiling. That's ok, not all children are sociable extroverts, perhaps especially not super-talented ones. But his mum confessed he was miserable at his super-top new boarding school, that she'd pushed him so hard for . . . She stopped coming to our group however and I've no idea how things have turned out.

[grufallosfriends]

What do all of these brilliantly trained musicians then do once they leave school?

They continue to play for pleasure! Some people genuinely love composing and playing music. Getting to grade 8 and beyond is actually enjoyable for some!

[Kashali]

Bankers, Lawyers, Politicians, usually something that pays so much money for too many ounces of flesh, leaving them no time to practice, They may play for some pleasure, or to impress their mates down the pub in an amateur combo, if they ever get the time.
Quite often take up cycling for a hobbie instead.

[Eastpoint]

Dcs have all left school now (hooray!) so I know what they are doing now they are at university - dds friend who is doing medicine at Imperial plays in their orchestra, was Gr8 around 13, another girl went to UCL, plays in the orchestra, others are/were music scholars/choral scholars at Oxbridge. Another girl was gr8 two instruments yr9, choral society & orchestra at Oxford, winning academic prizes not a musician. One of dd2s friends has diplomas in 2 instruments & plays another 2 at Gr8. She plays brass, strings & piano. Her parents are incredibly unpushy, her siblings are v different. Dd1 could have joined the main orchestra when she was in yr10 but didn’t really want to, she did Gr8 in yr12, only ever had one 30 minute lesson a week, has the same instrument from when she started playing aged 8 until now (played for fun at uni with friends, nothing serious).

One of the SPGS girls who is at Oxford, studying music is Grace Fit she is v successful on many levels.