Bus driver accuses 12 yr old of criminality and orders him off bus!

[DottingDad29]

So my son was ordered off the bus for using the wrong Zip Oyster Card.

When he tried to explain that the card he had presented was his old one he had lost and had since found, but innocently had mistakenly thought was the new valid one, the driver accused him of being an anti social delinquent who was involved in criminality and that TfL had in facts blocked his oyster card.

Luckily, a member of staff from the school was on bus stop duty and intervened. She explained that she was a teacher at my son's school and vouched for him being being able to travel on the bus for free as a school child.

The driver did not take well to the teacher intervening and made rude comments about teachers spoiling his life and causing trouble.

The bus driver then switched the engine off the bus and asked all passengers to get off so that the police could be called. My son was able to return to school where his valid Zip Oyster Card was in his jacket and boarded a later bus.

This was a VERY public and distressing scene for a child to experience, which from speaking to my son, he felt terribly embarrassed, more so at the thoughts of members of the public who did not know him but felt that he was at fault.

I will certainly be complaining to TfL about the conduct of the driver but wanted other's thoughts on how this should be followed up (with the school). The school hasn't been in touch about it.


I have taken away the invalid Zip Card from my son and instructed him to not interact with the driver. If the driver orders him off the bus in the future, he is to follow the instruction and let me know. The last thing I want is for him to be having a heated exchange with an aggressive ill-tempered bus driver.

Has any parents experienced anything similar?

Thoughts and opinions appreciated!

Cheers.

[SabineSchmetterling]

As a teacher who does bus duty I see lots of bus drivers who are unnecessarily hostile, rude and aggressive with 11-12 year old children. We had a bus driver once, in the middle of winter the nights were drawing in, let every child onto the bus and then insist that just one year 7 girl get off and wait for the next bus because there was no room. All the other kids squashed up so that there was space for her to stand without being in front of the line that nobody is allowed to stand in front of. He wasn’t having it and switched off the engine. When two older kids offered to get off to make space for the younger one he wouldn’t accept that either. He just kept shouting that she wasn’t getting on no matter what. Neither I nor our Deputy Head could convince him to take her so we were left with a tearful 11 year old who we had to put onto the next bus all by herself. I was furious.
I go to school by bus every day and it’s funny how the sanctity of not standing in the bit beside the bus driver doesn’t seem to apply when someone they know gets on the bus. There are regularly people who stand in that area chatting with the bus driver when the rest of the bus is half empty.
Some of the drivers around here are real arseholes when it comes to schoolkids.

[prh47bridge]

Clearly, given the balance of probability illustrated by Naem, the bus driver could have used his discretion

Naem did not have any figures and was guessing. As per my figures, around 140 children per month have their Oyster cards blocked for breaking the behaviour code. So I am not convinced the balance of probability was in favour of the lost card scenario.

Especially with the boy actually having a witness to him not being a criminal (and merely having lost a card/replaced a card)

The most common reason for a card being blocked is that the owner has allowed someone else to use their card. The teacher would not know that. Indeed, even with other types of misbehaviour, the teacher would not necessarily know. So the teacher cannot guarantee that the child is allowed to travel. And, if the ticket inspectors turned up and found that the driver had allowed the child to travel with an invalid card, what is he supposed to tell them? "A teacher who couldn't possibly know whether or not the card was blocked for behaviour assured me it was ok?"

bus drivers have been given guidance about not leaving school children on the streets possibly miles from home and with possibly no way of getting there

We know there was a teacher present so the bus driver was not going to be leaving the OP's son on his own with no way of getting home.

And so glad your 12 year old is a Peter-perfect robot and will never get stranded and need any kindness or understanding prh47

When my son's were 12 (and, indeed, even now when they are older) they got stranded a few times. I have never expected a bus driver to put his job at risk by allowing them to travel without authorisation. I expect them to learn the lesson and not do it again rather than trying to blame someone else for their mistake.

[Railworker]

The boy was not “trying to blame someone else” for his mistake. The op says the teacher tried to explain the position but the driver was rude.
Prh47, I hope your sons don’t turn out to be as incapable of compassion as you and that you never need someone to be reasonable god forbid you make a small mistake. Free travel for children is there for a reason - how lovely of you to assume that anyone who either forgets or uses the wrong oyster MUST be a disruptive criminal.
As has been repeated many times on this thread, bus drivers can treat people including the vulnerable (I include young mothers, children, people with LD and SEN and even the elderly) appallingly and I think people have a right to be outraged when they witness this kind of thing. I have seen this happen to all in this group. It is called bullying. This driver is a bully.
The bus driver would not lose his job btw 🙄

[formerlondonlass]

Bus driver sounds like he was on a power trip. No need for the accusations. He could have easily declined and been a jobsworth which would have been bad enough but within his rights. The rest was unnecessary.

[Seeline]

My DCs use their zip cards for school travel. They know that if they lose it/it breaks/fails etc, they will have to make alternative arrangements.

All DCs in London know that without a valid card they don't travel.

[WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles]

As someone whose DC has been a bystander to a very unpleasant altercation on the bus, can I ask this question of people who say the driver should have used discretion and let OP's DS on the bus?

What is the point of withdrawing cards for anti social behaviour if the driver then can use discretion and let them on anyway?

I definitely would be furious if my DC had been hurt by someone banned from travelling but was still allowed on the bus anyway, just because they said their card was old not withdrawn and the bus driver just took this at face value. I'm sure you all would be furious too? A teacher would not know if the card has been withdrawn either, and the driver shouldn't just shrug and accept this either.

The driver absolutely made the right call. Cards are withdrawn for good reasons and if a driver can just think "well they said it was lost not banned" and let them on, there is no point even having this sanction! If (god forbid) someone's DC was punched in their face and their nose was broken, how would you feel if it turned out their card had been withdrawn for previous violence but the bus driver just accepted they had brought an old card with them and let them on?

Of course the driver should not be rude, this goes without saying. Given the slightly wild eyed last post from the OP though I'm not taking that at face value either

[FakeUsername]

I get the bus the same time as school children and whilst some kids are difficult so are some of the drivers. A lot of under 11s seem to get the bus without oysters here, I watched one driver let on a yr 6 group (guessing maybe yr 5) of tall girls in primary uniform. Then a much shorter child also in the same uniform got on last, he probably wasn’t a great candidate for travelling alone as he seemed younger and had a speech impediment, and the driver shouted at him not to get on. The kid looked terrified and I walked down to vouch he was a primary kid and therefore free, then queried why he let around 8 kids on before him without cards. He told me the boy was rude not greeting or saying thank you. Frankly if 1 in 100 does this on London buses I’d be amazed, certainly no one else did. The drivers are behind a screen and never look at you, you just tap the oyster point. The kid had been silently boarding with his head down, then when questioning only had said ‘sorry, what should I do’ and mainly stood there looking wide eyed. He then told me to get off too, with my three kids for interfering! I’d been calm and polite. He made a comment about if I was going to support ‘his type’ I knew nothing and shouldn’t disrupt travel. I asked him if he’d seen him before, he said he didn’t have to.

I got annoyed and queried that as the only black child getting on the bus he was the only one stopped and asked him outright if that was the reason as I saw no other (I asked the child if I could talk to the driver for him if he didn’t mind standing aside first). Ended up getting off myself, he shouted but let the child on after this. The child told me he was yr 3 and I’d believe him.

Totally normal example of London buses Tbf, like watching them entertain themselves watching people run then closing the doors.

[Tortoiselass]

Lived in London my whole life and most bus drivers are rude arseholes to be honest. When I used to get on the bus with my baby DS in his pram they NEVER used to wait until I'd locked the buggy safely - sent us flying a few times. I remember when I was 11 my oyster card hadn't updated with the correct amount of money (genuine mistake, I hadn't realised), and I was yelled at, ordered off the bus and threatened to have the police called on me.

It hasn't changed. I smile and say hello every time I get on the bus and it barely ever gets acknowledged.

[WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles]

So all these horrible bus drivers, they don't sound like the best people to be let loose to decide who is an anti social arsehole and a risk to children and who just forgot their card? Kind of gives more weight to the rules being enforced, IMO.

I have no doubt there is are a proportion of bus drivers who are dicks, just as a proportion of the general public are dicks. But whether they are dickish or not, passengers need to accept the rules are rules and not rely on drivers to bend them. Especially if they are dicks, you definitely don't want to be relying on them then!

[frogsoup]

Prh47 the rules are pretty irrelevant here. You must know that the OP would not be complaining if the driver had said 'look son, I'm really sorry but I can't let you on with an invalid card, I know you've got the right one somewhere but i might lose my job if I let you on without a valid card.' If a driver wishes to stick unbendingly to the rules, that is clearly their prerogative, but there are ways of doing it that do not involve humiliating a 12yo. Also, I'm really not sure what skin you've got in suggesting there are no bullying power-tripping unpleasant bus drivers out there, when all of us know that there absolutely are. Besides which, drivers clearly have wide discretion in practice, even if the rules are clear. The chances of a driver losing their job over this kind of situation are slim to non-existent.

[prh47bridge]

I have not suggested there are no unpleasant bus drivers. Of course there are. I've come across some. But we don't know what the bus driver said. As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts, if he had said, "for all I know you've been banned for anti-social behaviour" he hasn't done anything wrong. If he did directly accuse the OP's son of anti-social behaviour I would agree he overstepped the mark but it is not clear that is what happened. The OP's second post tells us there was no argument between the driver and her son and that the bus driver turned off the engine when a teacher said the OP's son should stay on the bus. That is not bullying or power-tripping. That is the driver doing his job.

Besides which, drivers clearly have wide discretion in practice, even if the rules are clear. The chances of a driver losing their job over this kind of situation are slim to non-existent

I'm sorry but this is rubbish. There was a case a few year ago where Arriva sacked a driver with over 35 years service when two teenage girls were found travelling without tickets on his bus. He took it to tribunal and lost. The tribunal ruled that Arriva were right to sack a driver if a passenger was found without a ticket. Arriva regarded it as gross misconduct. The tribunal agreed. This is not the only case of a driver being sacked for carrying passengers who do not have a valid ticket. So I stand by my view that those who say the driver should have let the OP's son travel are expecting the driver to put his job on the line. And, of course, if the driver had allowed the OP's son to travel he would have faced the same problem going to school the following day.

[frogsoup]

I think you must have read a different OP. The one i read said "the driver accused him of being an anti social delinquent who was involved in criminality and that TfL had in facts blocked his oyster card" and "made rude comments about teachers spoiling his life and causing trouble." No hint of bullying or unpleasantness there, then, just a completely rational and polite refusal

[prh47bridge]

I read that. To repeat what I have said several times, if the driver did indeed accuse the OP's son of being antisocial he overstepped the mark. However, given that the OP wasn't there, it is not impossible that the driver simply commented that for all he knew the OP's son's card had been blocked due to antisocial behaviour, which would not be unreasonable.

The remarks about the teacher are over the top if the OP's version is accurate but somewhat understandable given that, from the OP's second post, the teacher seems to have told the OP's son to stay on the bus despite the fact he did not have a valid Zip Oyster Card.

[BackforGood]

As a teacher who does bus duty I see lots of bus drivers who are unnecessarily hostile, rude and aggressive with 11-12 year old children.

... and as a bus passenger of many decades experience, I have seen a HUGE number of passengers who are unnecessarily hostile, rude and aggressive. This includes - indeed is mostly made up of - school children, who, when there with their mates, think they own the world.
As such, the bus driver has every right to refuse to transport a child in these circumstances. It has been clearly explained that hundreds upon hundreds of YP have their cards cancelled for anti-social behaviour. The boy was trying to use a card that has been cancelled. The driver would have been completely unprofessional and wrong to let him on the bus with this card.

[SabineSchmetterling]

BackforGood- both TfL and the bus companies who operate the routes here have told us that their drivers are instructed to use their discretion with children in uniform. They are not told to refuse them without exception.
Besides, bus drivers who are shouty and aggressive with children are always in the wrong. Even if they do have to refuse them there’s no reason that he couldn’t have refused the boy calmly and politely as frogsoup suggested.
It’s really difficult now. There are no cash fares and no child rates for those without a card. In the old days you could loan a kid the fare from the office if they’d forgotten or lost their bus pass. When they got rid of cash fares at first you could buy bus tickets in advance at stations etc. We could keep a supply to hand out to those who were stuck. Now there are no tickets, no cash fares and while the older ones might have a contactless card that they can pay with if push comes to shove the Key Stage 3 kids don’t generally carry a bank card with them. In the past I’ve offered to pay for a kid with my own bank card and the driver refused because the card has to stay with the person travelling. Some of these kids are travelling across multiple boroughs in areas with some of the highest rates of knife crime and armed mugging against teens anywhere in the country. There has to be some common sense applied.

[SquirmOfEels]

I've known drivers use discretion for those who have forgotten their Zips (one of my DC is very scatty) when travelling in school uniform.

But never for presenting a cancelled one (because of upholding the sanction). Normal to be ordered off bus for that one. Explanations of it being the penalty would only come after person refused to comply and started answering back.

But you are correct, the driver should not have mentioned it. He shouid simply have turned off the engine without further comment when a non-ticketed passenger refused to leave

[SisterMaryLoquacious]

Bus driver had the rules on his side, and teacher’s intervention was irrelevant. Travel isn’t free for 11-15s in London: it’s free for 11-15s with a valid Zip card.

OTOH bus driver sounds like an arse - I know my DC are unusually careless but if everyone else was losing their cards at that rate then the “lost and found” to “withdrawn for bad behaviour” ratio would be about 100/1.

[ChippyMinton]

My DC travel on TfL buses every day and sometimes they have benefited from the drivers discretion, sometimes they have not, regardless of whether they were at fault (stolen card, lost card, run out of credit etc). They quickly learnt to be resilient.

[SisterMaryLoquacious]

I guess bus drivering is like selling alcohol - you have to have a solid culture of not ever ever backing down from your first decision when someone argues the toss otherwise it all crumbles.

If the teacher had made a relevant intervention, eg because the bus driver had suspected the child of being a 16 year old who’d borrowed his younger brother’s card and the teacher could confirm that that was untrue then that would be different.

[NCB2019]

That sounds harsh. A couple of times my quite tall son has lost his zip Oyster card at school, he has explained to the bus driver and has been let on.