Sutton Trust / Oxbridge / Top schools - yet more fatally flawed data

[Talkinpeece]

Yet again the Sutton Trust has released a report and press blurb based on fatally flawed analysis of their own data

Here is the BBC story
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46470838
Here is their press release
www.suttontrust.com/research-paper/access-to-advantage-university-admissions/
Here is the full report
www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/AccesstoAdvantaged.pdf

My LEA got listed as one of the ones that hardly sends any kids to Oxbridge or the Russell Group
I know this to be untrue so I checked the data.
They deem the location of pupils to be where they sit their A levels.

Southampton kids mostly do A levels in Hampshire
so Hampshire is getting the credit for bright Southampton kids

Then you look at the other LEAs that are shamed for failing their kids
and discover that many also have good 6th forms in neighbouring LEAs

so the schools are NOT failing the kids
just the Sutton Trust does not know how to read a map
again

[Bowchicawowow]

In one of your posts you said you doubted there was a north/south divide. Are we not allowed to respond to that?

[Talkinpeece]

I have no idea
and that was not what I started this thread about

[Bowchicawowow]

I don’t have a problem with anyone or any college. I do have a problem with you saying there is no north/south education divide. Are you honestly saying that kids in Wigan or Doncaster or any place similar have exactly the same life chances as kids in Hampshire?

[Talkinpeece]

No, you are.
Clavinova's post shows that they do an amazing job of getting bright kids into top unis.
What is your problem with them?

[Bowchicawowow]

I remember you complaining about them on a previous thread. A couple of hundred is quite significant. I wouldn’t have a problem with them either but please be aware you are comparing this college to a sixth form college in a borough (Wigan) which doesn’t have a private school.

[Talkinpeece]

When have I ever complained about private school kids at Symonds?
There are a couple of hundred of them per year
They do not bother me at all.
They are just kids

As for education being better funded in the south than north this is a well known fact.
NOPE
www.statista.com/statistics/381745/education-expenditure-per-pupil-england-region-uk/
Hampshire is in the "south east" .... second lowest

[Bowchicawowow]

Talkinpeace I have actually read one of your posts were you were complaining about private school kids going to Peter Symonds!
As for education being better funded in the south than north this is a well known fact. Go and find your own link!

[Talkinpeece]

A lot of the Peter Symonds kids will have attended private secondary school as opposed to the Winstanley kids
Que?
Symonds is the science / academic state 6th form for this part of Hampshire.
It has a catchment 50 miles across
State schools stop at year 11 here so ALL the state school kids go to colleges.
Southern kids also benefit from better funding than their northern counterparts.
Link please ?
Last I saw Hampshire funding was one of the lowest in the country.

Shock horror, not everybody in the south is rich you know.

[Bowchicawowow]

You have to look at the education provision the kids have prior to entering sixth form college when looking at the comparative AAB results. A lot of the Peter Symonds kids will have attended private secondary school as opposed to the Winstanley kids. Southern kids also benefit from better funding than their northern counterparts.

[Clavinova]

The least well off do significantly better at grammars than in comps

The attainment gap at GCSE level between disadvantaged pupils and their peers is only about 3 or 4% for a grammar school and over 20% in a comprehensive school - but it's not certain whether this is because a 'different type of disadvantaged child' is more likely to attend a grammar school. The OECD also found that disadvantaged pupils tend to do better in a school where there aren't many of them which is obviously true of a grammar school.

You seriously believe there is no north/south bias? It has taken colleges like Winstanley years to get so many students to Oxbridge. Previously they were doing well to get 8 or so there when Peter Symonds were sending 50

In 2016/17 Peter Symonds College had 362 students achieving AAB or higher in at least 2 facilitating A levels and Winstanley College had 162.

I can't find the relevant application stats for Oxford but for Cambridge:

2017 - Peter Symonds 61 applications 14 offers, Winstanley 29 applications 5 offers.
2014 - Peter Symonds 72 applications 25 offers, Winstanley 12 applications 3 offers.
2009 - Peter Symonds 57 applications 24 offers, Winstanley 25 applications 12 offers.

[Bowchicawowow]

Talkinpeace Oxford and Cambridge are first and second. That's slightly better than 29th!

[Talkinpeece]

There are no universities in the north which are comparable to Oxbridge.
Edinburgh might not be keen on that conclusion as they rank 29th in the world
www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-world#survey-answer

goodbye What on earth are you on about ?

[goodbyestranger]

The comparison of conclusions/ recommendations?

[Bowchicawowow]

You say that you have to compare like with like. There are no universities in the north which are comparable to Oxbridge.

[Talkinpeece]

Do you think that pupils in the north shouldn’t want to go to Oxbridge because it’s more than two hours away to travel?
I did not say that.
And why is it all about Oxbridge?
Lets look at Top200 unis and get the best outcomes for all kids?

[Talkinpeece]

The least well off do significantly better at grammars than in comps.
That is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Institute for education report conclusion.

And my issue on the report in my OP is with the data sampling about LEAs
Southampton has been named and shamed for something that is not the case.

[goodbyestranger]

Also, where is the comparison of conclusions?

[goodbyestranger]

That's not a fact OP. The least well off do significantly better at grammars than in comps. I think that is a fact.

[Bowchicawowow]

Do you think that pupils in the north shouldn’t want to go to Oxbridge because it’s more than two hours away to travel?

[Talkinpeece]

Bowchica
There is a north south divide - but you have to compare like with like.

Symonds has 2000 students per year
Most students go to university within 2 hours of their home
it is therefore entirely predictable that it will get more kids into southern unis than a college half the size at the other end of the country
even if all other things were equal.

[Bowchicawowow]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make TalkinPeace. Are you arguing that there is no north/south educational divide?

[Talkinpeece]

I also don't know how large the relative student populations are, which would have to be taken into account.
Well considering that London has a larger population than Scotland, surely the valid statistic will be applications per 1000 18 year olds

How about you list the clash in specific conclusions?
Well the fact that Grammar schools do not produce better exams than Comprehensives - for a start

[Everincreasingfrequency]

BBC reported last year (so may have changed this year):

London and south-east England received 48% of offers from both Oxford and Cambridge. The Midlands received around 12% of offers. The North West, the North East, Yorkshire and the Humber between them received 15% of Oxford offers and 17% of Cambridge offers.

What I don't know is how that relates to applications - is it partly because fewer students apply from those regions? Which of course raises its own issues - if so, why? I also don't know how large the relative student populations are, which would have to be taken into account.

(This also doesn't address where those students are going instead - if they are choosing to go to other excellent universities instead, it may not really. I don't know the answer to that!)

[goodbyestranger]

OP the ST conclusions are mainline and no surprise to anyone who knows a bit about the education of the most able. How about you list the clash in specific conclusions?

[Bowchicawowow]

You seriously believe there is no north/soutg bias? It has taken colleges like Winstanley years to get so many students to Oxbridge. Previously they were doing well to get 8 or so there when Peter Symonds were sending 50.