Grammar school - pros/cons, letting DD try

[PancakeMum6]

We live in a relatively deprived area of a very diverse city. I have 5DDs. My 4 oldest DDs all went to a classic inner city comprehensive - over 60% FSM, 91% English not first language. This is standard in the comprehensives across the city.

About a half an hour train journey out of the city is a grammar school. A totally different demographic - ridiculously white, overwhelmingly middle class, and all girls (an all boys is down the road, there is some crossover I believe). None of my older DDs ever expressed any interest, however it just so happens that’s DD5’s best friend’s big sister is at the grammar. This means that DD5’s three best friends are all planning on taking the test - one of them is starting tutoring for it in January, the other two have already begun past paper/question books.

I disagree with segregated education on principle, however DD has approached me asking if she too could look at the grammar and sit the 11+ as she doesn’t want to be left out - she’s worried her friends will all go to one school and she’ll be on her own at another. It would be massively inconvenient (long journey, longer school day) and the school is apparently awful for sports and arts (DD is very sporty and musical), and I’m not sure DD’s reasons for wanting to look (friends) are sensible. But should I give her free choice and let her sit the test anyway? What are people’s general experiences of grammar schools that almost exclusively focus on education?

I have mixsd feelings.

I went to a comp nearly identical to what you describe. Also got all a star gcses and very sporty and good at drama and music. My sisters both had a great time there but I had trouble with friendships, lots of low level teasing and bullying for being clever and good at sports. My friends from primary school didn't go to the comp.

My husband's family had far less money than mine but made huge sacrifices to send him to private school. He did similarly well and we are both in high flying careers now. The difference is I have no work ethic and procrastinate hugely. He has learnt to work at the best of his ability. His mental health is better than mine. I'm not sure how much this relates to our school experiences but I think it has had an effect.

Depends how good the comp is I think. Local comps where I grew up were bad. I went to grammar. All my primary friends who went to the comp have very different lives to anyone who went to grammar, it's very sad really. A few from grammar have lives like
Those from the comps but they seem to have chosen it rather than fallen into it and had little opportunity for more.

The thing is she doesn’t generally get on with the kind of girls who will most likely be at the grammar school. She has this one best friend (who she’s known since nursery) who she sits next to in class, and sometimes she’ll play with this girl and her friends (who are the ones applying for the grammar school) but she finds the two that aren’t the best friend quite annoying and boring at times. Her main friend group of choice, who she spends break and lunch with, is a big groups of boys (and one other girl) who all prefer more active games and are a bit livelier. She’s very sporty and outdoorsy, quite cheeky, very sociable. She likes action and a bit of chaos here and there - the grammar school would bore her socially I think and she’d be totally reliant on primary school best friend for friendships.

If I was to order my children in terms of GS suitability I’d say it was DD1, DD2, DD4, DD5, DD3. So DD5 is definitely not the one I thought might end up there...

The comp has never had problems with bullying - I’ve had 4 girls there and never heard of any bullying issue. There is occasionally some racial tension but it’s dealt with very quickly and successfully.

I wonder if there is another factor involved as well, which is that this DD is number five, and maybe part of the attraction is that she will not be number five in the grammar school, she'll be number 1, and charting a different path.

How difficult would it be, if she sat for the grammar school, got in, and then decided it wasn't for her, to move to the comp? I would have thought not so hard if she still has the sibling benefit, how long until DD4 is through?

If that is the case, and in fact, she would have a pretty good chance of moving to the comp if things weren't so great, then I would suggest you back her and let her try:

a) you will have a fall back;

b) you will convey to her that you support her and her dreams (even if you don't think they are necessarily the best ones).

If she doesn't get in, then that is sorted (assuming you give her the kind of backing that she thinks is reasonable, i.e. comparable with her friends, or at least most of them, so she doesn't feel disadvantaged.)

If she does get in, then you can always point out to her if she is unhappy that she can transfer, and if she does decide to do that, then next time she is likely to take your views more seriously. On the other hand if she is happy, then you have clearly done the right thing and let her choose the option that is best for her. Choosing your own path is a big part of having the confidence to face the future, and can be more valuable than all the extra curricular interests, which can always be done outside (and if she then decides they are more important, moving to the comp can come back on the radar).
If you don't support her - there is the risk that anything that goes wrong at the comp will be laid at your door ("if only you had let me sit for the grammar school ...").

Seems to me that there is relatively little harm in letting her try, and quite a lot in telling her she can't.

Oh Naem it’s definitely part of the pull... she LOVES being different from her sisters. I just don’t think it’s a great reason to choose a school...

I’ll ask at the comp how easy moving is - when she’s in year 7 DD4 will be year 10 and DD3 year 12 so hopefully it won’t be an issue but it is quite an oversubscribed school - they’re at 109% capacity
I think. I know it’s easy to move to the grammar school in year 8 because they often have a few left over spaces when not enough pass the test or quite a few leave. There’s usually 2 or 3 every year I believe. I might be able to say to DD that she has the option to move at the start of year 8 if she really does still want to be in classes with her best friend...

I suspect being told she can move in Year 8 won't satisfy her. A lot of this may well be about being "in the group sitting for the grammar school" and the prestige that will bring.
Don't forget that her best friend (and the other friends) may also not necessarily get in, and that will also change the dynamic of choice even if she does.
BTW I sat my DD for the entrance exam for a selective private school, even though we thought it unlikely she would go there (fees a bit scary, no grammar schools around here). I felt that the stretch would be good for her, and don't regret it (despite the cost of even applying) despite the fact she actually went to the local comprehensive school like her brother. The fillip to her confidence in getting in, the experience of an interview, the sense that there was more out there than just the SATs made it a worthwhile experience. Just because you sit for these things and even are offered doesn't necessarily mean you have to take them.
If I had to place a bet, I'd place my money on her getting in and then deciding in, say, August if not September, that actually she wanted the comp (especially if most of the other friends who try may well not get in). Of course you can't guarantee that, but I suspect it is a real possibility.

BTW with DD we treated it as a stretching experience, so if she hadn't gotten in, it wouldn't have mattered , as she wasn't going there anyway (which took away a lot of the pressure). She was probably one of the least pressured children in the room, because unlike the other kids, nothing was riding on it.
You might still be able enter your DD5 for it on the grounds that she is one of the kids in school that could do with stretching, and it will be good for her, even if you ultimately think (and can persuade her that) she would be better off at the comp.

@naem very good points. DS actually seemed to enjoy the exam process and even though he didn't get in to the GS on 1st of march he bounced back and the process was useful. Then when he actually got in via waiting list he was chuffed. We told him he could move back to the comp if he didn't like it.

I think she’s batting against the family ethos and wants to be herself. Not all children agree with their parents or siblings and neither should they. Let her try. You will still love her even if she takes advantage of segregated education that’s against your doctrine. I like children who think for themselves!

I'm finding this all very interesting - so very different from most GS threads where people are desperate to get a place and considering all kinds of plans to get a place.

I'm interested in this seemingly disappointing Grammar. It sounds fairly unusual for a Grammar to offer poor sports and extra curricular in the areas mentioned. It is pretty common for them to be even more underfunded than Comps and have poor facilities. I also wonder about the idea that she would find it socially dull - most schools will have enough children for pretty much all to find their niche and make friends. Is there some kind of inverse snobbery going on here? Just wondering?

In the end, you will need to decide and to be fair, you sound pretty clued up, with the data and having visited before - you're certainly thinking about the right things. I'd still go and visit again taking DD with you and try to be open minded. In the end you should decide not her, and tell her that will be the case from the start.....but you're interested in her input.

I guess it depends in the end if you think GS will boost her 'life chances' and if you want them boosted. You're obviously very happy with the Comp and yes lots of kids do very well from Comps and you have DDs who have.....but you can also see from your stats that there aren't many high fliers at A Level, even if your older DD was one of them. Would you prefer your DD to be in a cohort of more high fliers where high results are more likely, or are you not bothered about a lower performing cohort and don't think it will impact her and her achievement? Many people would choose to put their kids with those who are more academic and perhaps more prosperous, but you clearly look at this all a bit differently.......and that is very refreshing to be honest. Whether that gives the best opportunity or not to DD is open to debate and in the end we will never know as she can't have a full school career in both schools. You sound a lot less 'scared' than many parents, who worry their children will do worse because of mixed ability teaching, or being with disruptive children, and so will take every precaution to protect their children from these things, and who don't in the end trust their children or these schools to deliver the best outcomes. Is it wise to trust your DCs natural intelligence and believe they can achieve anywhere, or that they can achieve at a high level in a lower performing Comp? I'd say the GS is the safer option, but I don't think you are looking for that, and who is to say that safer is better.

Best of luck in deciding, but do go and look. Don't be put off the GS by facilities or things which might be minor. It is about what is a 'good fit' for your DC, but also know that your DD is probably perfectly capable of going to the GS, enjoying it, making friends and having a good time - it can be great for girls like her too, and not just those who might fit what seems to you a very narrow mould. Best of luck.

Yes - if she does sit the test I won’t be putting any pressure on at all. You may be right - perhaps she just wants to be involved with these three talking about sitting the test. Although she’s previously called the other two boring and complained that one always just wants to ‘sit and chat’ (not a breaktime activity that appeals to DD5 in the slightest).

Bubbles if this were the other way round and I was lamenting that she wanted to go to the comp to follow a friend while all siblings had gone to the grammar would you be responding the same way? There’s no ‘family doctrine’ - I gave all DDs the chance to look around the grammar school. I just think DD5 is one of the least suited out of the family - she generally gets on better with boys, she’s disorganised about homework (most of it gets done at breakfast), she loves sport and music.

The grammar certainly isn’t failing - it’s just very academic focused. They have a cross country team and a newly formed dance team and that’s it for extra curricular sport, they have a concert band, a general choir, and a chamber choir for music (the orchestra was disbanded when the teacher left). They do a school show every 3 years (vs the comp which does a production every year) and not many are even involved (DD1 co-wrote and directed the school show when she was in year 12 - a fab opportunity!). Their academic results are undoubtably outstanding but I’d prefer a rounded education for my DDs really. The comp just has a far bigger variety of opportunities on offer, and way more social and ethnic diversity.

If DD was saying to me that she wanted to go the grammar because of the good STEM opportunities or the choice of Spanish and German at GCSE as well as French. Or if she was saying she’d prefer a small school (only 116 intake - 4 classes per year. I think that’s why there’s so little on offer with extra curriculars) or thinks she’d learn better in an all girls environment, then fair enough. But she’s saying she wants to get the train and stick with a friend...

DD3’s best friend (Y10) is at the grammar and is staying with us this weekend so DD5 can chat to her. She doesn’t speak very highly of the school either though (also quite sporty and musical so feels a void there).

And I know there isn’t one grammar school mould, I think it’s just because this is such a small (4 class intake - only twice the size of a primary school) school, combined with it being all girls and having so few BAME/ESL students and students on FSM means that it sadly isn’t a very diverse place to be. It also does limit its opportunities to academic - it’s got a heavy STEM focus for sure. DD1 struggled with that in her 3 weeks there.

It's a really tough choice and I faced a similar thing last year when DD suddenly wanted to do exams for schools. She came home and said 'other kids are doing exams for schools, why aren't I?'

I haven't got any other children so I didn't have prior personal knowledge to go on and had actually been fine with sending her to our local comp (though I preferred one a bit further away which would have been waiting list time with no guarantee). Local comp just sent their first student to Cambridge and seems a friendly and kind school.

DD like yours is an academic high flyer and easily out-performed all targets at primary.

In the end it came down to her having good reasons for wanting to sit exams (stuff like learning Latin which she was really keen to do) and the fact that she seemed so self-motivated to do it. She was the only one out of the people taking exams to get into the super-selective and also won a bursary to an independent school. We let her make the choice of where to go as she'd demonstrated a level of get up and go in terms of preparing and choosing that I am not sure I have reached, even as an adult.

We did get her a bit of tutoring, just on exam technique, because taking exams is an art in itself and state primaries have no reason to prepare children for this. It would probably have been perfectly fine without.

If it's literally all about friendships which will probably change at secondary anyway, then let her do it and see what happens. If she has other reasons for wanting to go, maybe try to give her a bit of support with past papers etc? It's her life and choice and if she has reasons for it then I think they should be respected. Both schools sound good in different ways and your daughter will probably be fine at either!

DD was at a primary that sounds similar to your comp (v socially mixed, wonderful progress figures, not brilliant attainment figures, kind and full of opportunity). She's transitioned to an incredibly different and tougher environment with way higher expectations but is thriving and loving it. I think she made the right choice for her.

A lot can change in a few weeks or months. Honestly by the Sept of year 6 both my children were articulate enough to make their own choices re: schools and both the schools they chose were right for them. I played devils advocate with them both got them to a for and against list etc. I think if you said no to GS outright now you might get it in the neck for years to come. Pretend you have an open mind encourage and support her all you can and see how things pan out. It sounds like you are fortunate with a GS and a good comp on your doorstep.

I would certainly support her studying for the eleven plus as it gives her an opportunity to challenge herself and be self motivated and self disciplined to achieve what she thinks she wants.
The decision for which school is finally selected is some way off, at the moment you are only having to decide to help her try and find out more whether it is what she truly wants.
However as devil’s advocate for that future decision, despite her sisters’ school sounding great, there are some points reading your posts that are in favour of the grammar.
First if she is very able at maths then I don’t think you can dismiss the advantage of a much strong STEM teaching. You have to be careful not to bias her academic direction by your present views of her.
You say Most of her friends are a) boys and b) actually a bit naughty... it’s just the best friend she’s following. If her friendship circle of ‘naughty’ boys becomes disengaged teenagers and the academic friend that motivates her disappears to the grammar school is she likely to keep on wanting to try hard? She may be different in that regard to her sisters. Competiveness is very stimulating for many DCs, stereotypically more so for bright boys than conscientious girls. Which is your DD5 most similar to?
I wouldn’t dismiss her need to strike a different path from her sisters especially when teachers have a tendency to remember the older siblings and she feels she is always being compared and is just replicating their experience. However she needs to realise that she will need an outlet for her physical and creative energy that she may need to provide herself if she goes to the grammar.
As an aside it is imterestimg that the grammar is predominantly white MC since in other regions grammars tend to have many more BAME pupils , although not FSM of course.

I definitely see all your arguments sendsummer. The same school as sisters thing is also an interesting discussion - she’s very confident generally, but when DD4 first started secondary school and DD5 was the only one at her primary she actually struggled with anxiety quite a bit, despite usually being so confident and bubbly. The other week I took out DD2 in the evening and DD1 was working, so one of DD1’s friends (who DD5 has known her whole life) babysat and DD5 was really funny about getting to sleep without me or DD1 being there. She likes at least one of us around when she’s going to bed. She’s only just become confident at sleepovers and Brownie camp has been such a struggle on all three occasions - she had to come home early the second time because DD4 wasn’t there and she was just too nervous in the evening. I think part of the GS fear is that she’ll only know a handful of pupils across the whole school, and none of them will be her sisters. She likes to be contrary to them but she is actually very attached, and I think secondary school is such a huge adjustment anyway and having her sisters and all their familiar friends around would help alleviate the pressure a little. I know that network has helped DDs 2-4 a lot.

She’s very good at maths but she likes abstract maths - no interest in mechanics/electricity or science and she’s not actually enthusiastic about maths generally. She’s never been into typical engineering/STEM activities - not even tech/robot toys as a young child. Her favourite subjects at school are PE, music, and French.

From what I can gauge the boys she’s friends with are either bright but cheeky (but still get their work done) or not as naturally academic but hardworking and sensible in class. They’re just all pranksters/total livewires once they leave the class room - I see them all settling down a bit more by the time they’re at exam level. One of them comes to ours twice a week because they swim together and he really struggles so DD enjoys going through the class work with him - it’s funny to watch, she loves assuming that ‘teacher’ role obviously a genetic predisposition then once they’re done they’ll be straight upstairs to fill the bathtub with ketchup or something...

I think a big issue is that I’d also hate her to develop a competitive streak and be loaded with academic pressure. The GS also has a poor rep for mental health (lots of girls with anxiety/anorexia) and I know it’s probably not the school but it’s definitely more prevalent in that demographic (high achieving girls). I don’t think it’s a healthy atmosphere to grow up in and very much normalises MH problems. I’d rather she got average grades but was happy + healthy than top grades but under inordinate amounts of pressure. Maybe I’m too academically laid back and too socially conscious.

Glaciferous glad it worked out for your DD - she sounds fab! much more conscientious than DD5 ever will be If DD told me she wanted to go to the grammar school because she wanted to learn German and do engineering then I would be delighted. Somehow don’t see it happening given that her long term ambition is to be either a “lizard tamer” or a member of a breakdance crew, and she declared at breakfast yesterday that “homework sucks and whoever created it should be burnt at the stake”... she’s not the studious little girl her academic performance might indicate

And the grammar’s white mc-ness is almost spooky, I won’t lie. DD1 was the only mixed African-White person in the whole school when she was there. Plus there was one black girl (in year 7 or 8). Then there were a handful of Pakistani and Indian girls - maybe 5 in a yeargroup of 120 and that was it - other than that totally white. So weird.

PancakeMum interesting as the detail in your latest posts gives me a different view of this DD to what I glimpsed from the previous posts. However the thought of being with her friend at secondary school and enabling that by doing the eleven plus appears to be a comfort for her at the moment.

STEM subjects include pure maths and physics or biological sciences. Engineering is only one avenue. If she likes the puzzles of abstract maths then she may like a STEM subject in the future.
Having a DC grow up without MH issues is a priority. I am not sure though that shielding them from competition at school ensures that for those with a tendency, stress won’t just be triggered by competition later in life including at university, especially as they may not have developed the coping skills whilst at school. My DCs gained from being with very bright students in part because they gained a healthy perspective of their own abilities.

But she’s saying she wants to get the train and stick with a friend...

I agree those are not good reasons, but it is also why I suspect that if those are her real reasons, she will most likely grow out of them if given the space and freedom to do so.

The risk is that, at Year 5, she is not able, no matter how bright, to articulate the real reasons (or even fully understand the real reasons),

Possible reason 1 might be that she is signalling to you that she is, top table and extra work or no, not being stretched by her schooling at the moment, and she is looking for a challenge (and has latched onto this). This is despite protestations about homework. A lot of homework is a waste of time, particularly if you are bright and have got it already. Asking a bright kid to do a hundred maths problems they know how to solve because the other kids in the class need the practice (and they really do) can easily lead to that kind of reaction. Not to mention pointless projects, of which I am sure we can all think of a number.
Reason number two might be sheer competitiveness (which will out, no matter how you think about it). DD is not like this, but my DS is. We had our own example in Year 6 with DS. DS was an extremely average student in maths all the way through primary school. In year six in those days they had the level 6 to stretch the brightest kids, and at the beginning of the Year 6 year, the teacher started taking the brightest kids out to teach them the Year 6 maths course. DS was absolutely determined to go, and would not take no for an answer. In October the teacher was phoning me and saying "he really would do better concentrating on mastering the Level 3-6 course". By December it was "I am happy for him to come out for the Level 6 course because he seems to be getting so much out of it, I just won't sit him for the exam", and by February parent-teacher it was "of course I am sitting DS for the Level 6 exam". I nearly fell off my chair. He didn't get the Level 6 , but he only failed by a whisker, he did stupendously well on the Level 5 exam, and his maths has never looked back (his teacher is hoping for a Level 9 from him in the GCSEs this year). I think it was sheer bloody competitiveness. Being on "top table" was never enough to motivate him, but being taken out was a different story. I was very sceptical about whether this was a good idea of his, but didn't like to kill his ambition by coming down hard, so I just tried to stay neutral about it, on the grounds that it was up to his teacher to ensure which class he actually was present in during school time. It might be that for your DD5 it is not about being able to "talk" to these friends about the exam exactly, it is about being seen to be high achieving, and there may be a sense of "what's the point being on top table if I am not allowed to do what the high achievers do". Are maybe some of her friends who are boys (especially the bright ones) sitting the boy grammar school exam? Might it be more about keeping up with them than the reality of the school itself?
And the being under her sisters' shadow may be a push and a pull. While she might exhibit a lot of anxiety about being away from her sisters, she might desperately desire it also, and be very torn. Closing down that option might feel to her like you are saying to her, you have got to stay under the shadow of your older DDs, while the GS might feel, at least at this point, like a dream of freedom. Until she gets offered a place though, it is effectively a harmless dream of freedom without responsibility. Once there is a real place on offer, that will change it to a real choice, at which point some of the reality of making her own way may hit (either immediately or in the August/September before she was to start, or as she is starting) and at least you are dealing with realities and not possibilities if you at that point push her to see some of the more problematic aspects of the GS, even though she has shown she can do very well and you are very proud of her. And being the only one to get into GS and turn it down can also be a distinction between her and the other DDs.

"level 3-5" course of course

She definitely doesn’t want to be viewed as ‘smart’ - she was making mistakes on purpose in some of her English work last year because she didn’t like it when the teacher read her work out. She’s not academically competitive at all. She also is definitely challenged by some of her work - that may not be the case next year but she’s on a table with the three brightest year 6s for maths and I believe they’ve been doing some work from a year 8 text book. They’re very much left independently.

None of the boys are sitting the GS tests that I know (the boys’ school has an even worse rep and most of them have older siblings either at DDs’ school or the outstanding comp down the road). I do think it’s just that her best friend and best friend’s two friends (who make up here table for afternoon lessons, which aren’t set - they’re just the top table in her class) talk about the test and secondary school quite a bit and she doesn’t want to feel left out of that conversation.

I know abstract maths can be useful in STEM but she really isn’t that keen about maths, and the school is more engineering focused. When DD1’s friend at the school got a Cambridge offer she wasn’t able to get any help with STEP questions because all the maths teachers had various engineering degrees rather than pure maths. As I said - her favourite subjects are PE, music and French. She’d choose them over maths any day, she’s just naturally good at maths...

As I did with DDs 1-4 I do intend on allowing her to choose if she wants to go to the GS open day, and those of all three comps we’re in the area for, despite the fact that the grammar and one of the comps don’t really portray the real word in their student body (which bothers me). I hope that she’s able to ultimately decide for the right reasons - if she were choosing right now she’d be choosing for all the wrong reasons.

She wouldn’t be the first in our family to reject the grammar school after a test pass - DD1 did for year 7 before her disastrous 3 weeks there in year 12, and DD2 sat for (and got) a place to start in year 9 but decided against it.

Well the grammar school is decidedly rejected after all - 9yos astound me. She may change her mind nearer the time but after a quick chat with DD’s friend she ascertained that the GS
a) definitely doesn’t have a netball team (something she’d been excited about after seeing her sisters in netball games for years)
b) definitely doesn’t do big school shows (again - always loved going to see the high school shows with her DDs in)
c) makes you do more exams (not sure she understood what a grammar school actually was... but they have to do a minimum of 12 GCSEs!!)
d) doesn’t let you do both music and PE GCSE (though I suppose that could change by the time she’s there so I’ll tell her to ignore it for now)
e) not good reports from DD3’s best friend about the girls there - bullying, gossiping, excluding, competitive atmosphere.

I’ll still give her the option when open days swing round but she seems quite firmly set against it and I’m glad she came to the conclusion herself (and with relatively sensible reasons - compared with 1 friend + trains!). I didn’t even have the chance to have a proper discussion with her, she’s gathered her own evidence from the many teens in our social circle. Another pro of big sisters I guess

Have loved reading this thread for the reasons ChocolateWombat mentions (about most GS threads) above, and love the OP as a rare person on MN education who gets it re diversity, not just a buzzword but something highly beneficial to all schoolkids indeed future society as a whole . .And that’s diversity in every way, ethnicity social academic or physical ability you name it. Like her I would willingly sacrifice a few A*s at GCSE for a well balanced happy teenager who accepts him/herself as they are and neither disparages nor envies those with different abilities or backgrounds. Segregated education- whatever it’s based on - promotes hierarchy and snobbery, indeed that’s its justification (Some Are More Equal Than Others). I’m not judging any individual’s choice here, indeed I think in OPs case I would let DD try for the GS while making clear she understands my reservations- all of them - about the place. Good mental health, a broad social experience facilitating an easy sociability with all wins out over academic point scoring every time, in professional life too I bet . . I think your DD will turn out fine whatever she does now OP. Her brilliant sisters would put her in her place if she ever started getting any ideas about GS kids being superior!

She definitely doesn’t want to be viewed as ‘smart’ - she was making mistakes on purpose in some of her English work last year because she didn’t like it when the teacher read her work out.

^^ This would worry me sending her to the comp. If she is shy about looking too smart in comparison to her peers won't she deliberately perform less well and achieve less?

My dad didn't let me take the grammar school test and I went to a failing comp and did really badly. I've never forgiven him.

Looks like your DD has made her decision which sounds like it's for the best.

I was going to say that if she likes chaos then a Grammar is not the right place. People send their DC there because there's little disruption. Don't knock it. It'd be right for some DC and wrong for others including your DD.