Grammar school - pros/cons, letting DD try

[PancakeMum6]

We live in a relatively deprived area of a very diverse city. I have 5DDs. My 4 oldest DDs all went to a classic inner city comprehensive - over 60% FSM, 91% English not first language. This is standard in the comprehensives across the city.

About a half an hour train journey out of the city is a grammar school. A totally different demographic - ridiculously white, overwhelmingly middle class, and all girls (an all boys is down the road, there is some crossover I believe). None of my older DDs ever expressed any interest, however it just so happens that’s DD5’s best friend’s big sister is at the grammar. This means that DD5’s three best friends are all planning on taking the test - one of them is starting tutoring for it in January, the other two have already begun past paper/question books.

I disagree with segregated education on principle, however DD has approached me asking if she too could look at the grammar and sit the 11+ as she doesn’t want to be left out - she’s worried her friends will all go to one school and she’ll be on her own at another. It would be massively inconvenient (long journey, longer school day) and the school is apparently awful for sports and arts (DD is very sporty and musical), and I’m not sure DD’s reasons for wanting to look (friends) are sensible. But should I give her free choice and let her sit the test anyway? What are people’s general experiences of grammar schools that almost exclusively focus on education?

[BubblesBuddy]

You started the thread saying not trying for the grammar would separate DD from her friends, in her view. So you’ve managed to turn that anxiety around! Well done.

[PancakeMum6]

Absolutely sendsummer - the extra attention and support definitely works for them and reassures me.

montenuit very little bullying at this school (the languages barriers between many of the students make any complex bullying a challenge) and a good culture of working hard (as shown in the ofsted comments). Where it differs - I gather the grammar school promotes hard work with the view of A*s and As and pushes surrounding grades and high targets. The comp promotes hard work regardless of outcome - more ethos based than achievement based, which I much prefer as an attitude.

You’re right Naem. I too am really glad she sorted it out herself and for good reasons! (If she’d told me the comp was her favourite because of the climbing wall I might have cried...)

GreenElli3 good luck to your daughter! DD’s decided against grammar for now, she’ll have a look again in summer but this specific school doesn’t really make sense as a choice for her. Hope it suits your DD.

[GreenElli3]

DD is in year 4 now and I was recently talking to someone at the school who told me that grammar school could be an option - I hadn't even considered it before. She told me about a book called 11+ Survival and Success on amazon. IMO - It is a really good read, cheap, helpful and has made up my mind to give it a go for DD in 2020 - it has given me pointers in getting her ready for the tests and I have enough time to do it now without pressure.

[sendsummer]

I appreciate that high achievement and hard work is very valued at the school and the girls’ achievements and aspirations are always recognised and encouraged.
Which is great and how it should be. However my point is that your DDs benefit from being part of a minority of higher achievers as well having good teachers; they would n’t feel as special in a school where many of the pupils are MC.
Since it is working for them and for you of course you and they should continue to make the most of it.

[Naem]

Well the grammar school is decidedly rejected after all - 9yos astound me.

Doesn't astound me at all. I think 9yos are often very capable of coming to the right conclusion by themselves if given the space to do so. And given that this sounded like the right decision, it doesn't surprise me that she would work that out, and if she is as work shy as you make out, then it is not surprising it was sooner rather than later, one has to work for the 11+, at least a bit, no matter how you cut it.
But even if she would have been happy to knuckle down to some serious study, it sounded like in terms of her interests, the comp is clearly superior (netball, school play etc), so if she continued to not see that, there would have had to be something else going on.
So I am not surprised at all that she made this decision, but I think it is so much better that she made the decision rather than you making it by overruling her. Then she can own the decision and it is hers, not yours.

[montenuit]

She definitely doesn’t want to be viewed as ‘smart’ - she was making mistakes on purpose in some of her English work last year because she didn’t like it when the teacher read her work out.

This would be ringing alarm bells for me.
Will she really thrive and stretch and push herself in the comp? Will she really want to stand out and be one of the high achievers? It doesn't sound like it..
My brother was terribly buliled in the comp I thrived at, purely because he was in a year group with some little shits that made his life hell. I went in chippy and confident and didn't take any of it from anyone right from the off (having witnessed my brother) and subsequently was let be. Attitude means a lot in a comp.

[PancakeMum6]

Ofsted was assessed as requires improvement in 2015 and turned it around to be outstanding in 2017.

Quotes from the report that support my feelings on the school -

“As a result of their very effective actions, teaching, learning and assessment and achievement have significantly improved and are now outstanding. The most able pupils achieve highly and pupils make rapid progress in English.”

“Pupils’ behaviour and attitudes to learning are exemplary. Pupils want to come to school and want to learn, and they work hard to achieve all of which they are capable.”

“The superb quality of teaching and learning is a significant strength of the school. Teachers have excellent subject knowledge and high expectations, which they use well to deepen pupils‟ learning and encourage pupils to aim high. Teacher and pupil relationships are exceptionally strong.”

The GS was last properly assessed in 2008 and was also outstanding - but obviously that’s a bit of andated assessment now! Both of their sixth forms are ofsted rated ‘good’.

It’s a shame your comprehensive isn’t providing for your son - I do feel very fortunate to have such good schools around here. I think most kids are a little bored in the first term of year 7 because a lot is just recap so they can settle - hopefully it will get better as he goes up the school (and maybe more rigorous setting?).

[whitecatsandblackcats]

From all that you've said, it sounds like the comp is a fantastic school.

You sound enviably confident in the comp over the grammar - I actually wish you could bottle some of that attitude and send it over to me! I'm currently very anxious because DS2 didn't make the grammar and now he feels less smart than his older brother, who is at the grammar and doing really well. Having experienced the grammar - the pace of learning, the challenges they provide, the overall atmosphere of a highly intellectually stimulating environment - the comp that DS2 is at just seems like a massive let down with DS2 bored most of the time.

You're lucky to have such a fantastic comp nearby. Out of interest what is its Ofsted grade?

[PancakeMum6]

Bubbles fairly sure I’ve alreadg explained my background on this thread - I went to a grammar school in Northern Ireland, an RG university and am now a teacher. DH went to a grammar school in London, Oxford for uni, and was eventually a headteacher. We’re about as middle class as you get however DDs 1, 2 and 3 were adopted aged almost 5, just turned 3 and 11 months. They have to, and have had to overcome far more than your average child to get a sense of their identity and do well in school. DD1 reacted poorly to the grammar school because the pastoral care wasn’t the level she required at that time (my DH died during her year 11 on top of everything she went through as a young girl). As you point out - more money in the comprehensive means they can afford to channel more info those areas. The GS just seemed to acknowledge MH issues as commonplace and were seemingly unable to offer much support.

I am not opposed to the grammar. I am opposed to DD5 attending the grammar (just as I would have been wary had DD3 wanted to try). I bought DD4 past papers for the test two years ago because I really believed she’d thrive there but she refused to even consider it.
DD2, the other child I think would have benefited, considered it seriously in year 7 and for sixth form until realising she’d be unable to do her A levels of choice. Just because I ideologically don’t agree with segregated education (frankly I don’t know anyone who does?) it doesn’t mean I impose that on my DDs. Most of the parents of children I know at the grammar school also oppose the system - nobody lets it get in the way of what’s best for their kids.

When the school a 5 minute walk away is excellent it’s surely not that unlikely that 5 girls who are very close to one another and need extra support would all choose it. It’s an incredibly popular, over subscribed school that people actually move into the catchment for. The GS often doesn’t fill its places because of the way they set the pass mark and the many good comprehensives in the area that people often choose instead - not just because of ideology, but because most of them (not just the one my DDs are at) offer the same high quality of education, just in a less pressured, more diverse environment and with different extra curricular focuses and a better teacher:pupil ratio.

sendsummer you’re right - I appreciate that high achievement and hard work is very valued at the school and the girls’ achievements and aspirations are always recognised and encouraged. It’s a lovely quality and has given my older DDs so much reassurance in their abilities.

[BubblesBuddy]

The way you talk about the working class tends to suggest you identify with them. Although, of course, the working class who managed to get to grammar schools in the past managed to lift themselves up above the poverty of their forefathers. Many were proud of their grammar school children.

If you are MC, I’m surprised your DDs had such a reaction to the grammar school. Therefore the views must be influenced by you and politically driven. 3 weeks isn’t trying it really. She did want to be where she felt comfortable though and could go back to that. That’s fair enough.,

Sometimes grammar schools, without £££ of pp money, (and how much extra does the comp get??) don’t necessarily have great progress 8 scores. Although both these schools are ok on that front and are pretty close. Another cohort could easily swap these figures round. I would be more concerned about the 5% not getting the 4-9 grades. That’s high for a grammar school and is clearly messing up their progress 8 because these children must be a minus figure in comparison to their starting points. Taking out these children might produce a different progress 8 figure for the vast majority. However the big question is why 5% cannot get the minimum GCSE qualifications when most Grammar DC do.

[sendsummer]

PancakeMum I am sorry for all that you have been through.
I just want her to go to a school that fits her and ‘gets’ her and all her crazy ways.
She sounds like a nice normal energetic girl to me, not what I call crazy at all.
You say your preferred secondary school has a small group of high achievers and gives them a lot of attention. I suspect that due to that your DDs have had more teacher time devoted to them there than they would at most schools. They have probably been made to feel special. I can see why you value that.

[PancakeMum6]

And I agree rhah the 12 GCSES is outdated - that’s why I’d rather DD didn’t go to a school where that’s enforced...

She will still be looking at all 3 possible schools. The GS and the two comps. I’m not ruling any out. I just want her to go to a school that fits her and ‘gets’ her and all her crazy ways.

[PancakeMum6]

whataboutbob that’s interesting. I’d say judging from the FSM% working class students are probably woefully underrepresented at the GS schools too - obviously it’s just not as visually evident and as DD1 was only there 3 weeks I can’t commenf on the class mix as easily. It’s just easy to scan the pupil body and identify a lack of racial variety.

ChocolateWombat I don’t think it’s awful in terms of extra curriculars - it’s good if DC want to pursue STEM (they have clubs for building go karts and lamps and attend science fairs I believe), languages (there’s a Japanese club), or singing (a general choir and a chamber choir). It’s also outstanding for cross country (I believe they were national champions a few years ago and are definitely consistently regional champions). DDs’ school isn’t great for STEM opportunities and their cross country team is nothing special. But I think the GS student body isn’t big or interested enough to have a netball team (and they lack the facilities - they have to get a bus to PE because they have no outdoor space), put on a good show every year, or form an orchestra. DD knows she wants to play netball and is into music/dance/drama, so I believe the best place for her is somewhere where these opportunities are readily available.

I gloss over academic success because their progress 8 score is lower than that of DDs’ school, which leads me to wonder if their academic achievement is only outstanding because of their student body. Of course they’re going to get good results - they’ve cherry picked the clever, motivated girls. I also don’t really care what grades my DC get as long as they’re please with them. DD5 doesn’t have a lot of academic ambition - she’s a coaster really. It’s frustrating but I’m not willing to compromise her happiness just for better grades...

I do acknowledge your points about mixing outside of social circle - however I like that DDs mix with the different cultures because the culture in our house is classically white mc. Going to the grammar school would actually be staying in a school with lots of people who come from a similar background, rather than taking advantage of the cultures we’re fortunate enough to be surrounded by.

Bubbles I actually pushed DD1 and DD2 to switch to the grammar for sixth form. I took them both to the GS sixth form open days, and convinced DD to at least give it a good go after she got such outstanding GCSE results. When she wanted to leave after day 1 I said she had to give it more of a chance. I let her leave at week 3, because it was clear it wasn’t working out and she was coming home early in floods of tears or just not going because she was so anxious. She was having awful debilitating panic attacks when she did go there (and the school were unconcerned - one teacher told me “if I had a pound for every panic attack I see I’d be rich”. Hardly filled me with confidence.).

DD2 wanted to do Arabic A level so after going to the induction day decided not to move because it wasn’t good enough to compromise her A level choices. I maintain that the grammar school would have suited her and DD4. I was not going to push it, but I encouraged it way more for them than I have for DDs 1, 3 and 5. As you point out - DD5 is bright, yes, but she’s lively, she’s not academically motivated, she finds most girls boring and thrives off chaos.

I have 5 DDs. I’ve looked at the GS in depth for all of them. It’s not correct to say I’ve not “considered the whole education” when it’s been on our radar for 8 years... I know where the school is better (STEM, languages) and where it’s worse (unusual languages, performance, sport, diversity). The grammar would fit our family socially (though older DDs might struggle more due to their early years - DD4 and 5 have none of those identity issues). I went to grammar school. We are mc. It’s nothing about “not for the likes of us”.

[BubblesBuddy]

I love the idea that you don’t have a family ethos that says grammar schools don’t fit your DCs! You let them look at the grammar and then they all agree not to go or leave! They have all rejected the notion of them. They would not necessarily think like that if you were pro grammar schools and wanted them to have this type of education. It appears to fit with the view you have of your family that Grammars are not for the likes of you. If the comp reflects your neighbourhood, and that’s important to you, what happens when your DDs leave the neighbourhood to live or work? Or do they not do that?

I don’t care what schools people choose. Neither of my DDs went to a grammar although we live in a grammar county. I believe people should choose the school that suits their DC. The comprehensive you describe has huge amounts of extra money over the grammar because of the pp numbers. How much £ extra do they get? They ought to have something to show for that.

All the Grammars I know have wonderful plays, shows and concerts. I think you and DD have found a few things you don’t like but haven’t looked at the whole of the education offered. Very few schools insist on 12 GCSEs either. This sounds outdated as no child needs this number. As your DD is not really thinking about what she wants to do in any meaningful way, I am revising my view and agree that she would not suit a grammar.

[ChocolateWombat]

Fair enough if the comp is a better fit and that's what you decide in the end, but I do wonder a bit about some of the basis of your decision.

Clearly the ethnic and social mix is important to you - fair enough. However, as a previous poster said, the 91% English not first language and 60% FSM might reflect your community,but doesn't reflect the country or other communities she might live in later. Is there any reason to think she will always live where you live now - is there a chance that by only exposing her to one type of community, it becomes harder to later to break out and become part of others, which might be benefitical in all kinds of ways at later points?

Clearly your other DD have done well and are doing well. However, it's also worth all children knowing there is more than their narrow and limited experience, and I donthinknsome parents either knowingly or unknowingly limit their children's experience.

This just reminds me a little of a conversation I had with a fellow mum - she had a choice of 2 schools for secondary - a really good one which was Ofsted Good and doing really well - very big school with lots of clubs, good GCSE results and wide ranging provision, and the other school which was struggling - far smaller so struggling for funding and applications,with much worse results and limited clubs and low morale amongst staff after poor ofsted. The Mum was choosing the latter - why - because she had gone to that school and her older 2 had too - her words 'it was good enough for us and it will be good enough for DD' - there was a real sense of fear about this other unknown school which might contain children and experiences she didn't know about. This woman had a life of struggle in all kinds of areas and it felt to me like she wanted the same for her DD and that the idea of aspiration or something better just made her personally feel threatened.

Now I know OP that your situation isn't like this, but some of your comments reminded me of this. I wonder if the GS is as bad as you make out - you make it sound terrible in terms of extra curricular, and that sounds very unusual to me. You also gloss over the academic success, and seem sure your DD couldn't make friends there or be happy - and that 'those people' are just not her type and she wouldn't fit in - but is that really true, or is it your own prejudices limiting her?

I'm not saying the GS is the right option. We could equally be talking about an alternative Comp couldn't we really. And I'm not saying the school all your kids go to and which you clearly rate isn't good either, but I'm asking if you should look again at some of the basis of your preferences and question them. You may do that and still reach the same decision. You might think it out of order for raising these questions and I don't know your area or circumstances, which is all true, but you have come on here to ask, and some of the things you mentioned just made me wonder if you are really open to all the alternatives.

You say your DD has decided against GS now. Well, she's changed her mind in a couple of days and this really might not be the last change of mind by a long way. Wouldn't the best thing be to look at all the alternatives with her anyway, encouraging her to be open minded andntryingnto be so yourself too,rather than pouncing on today's view of it, because her view today fits with what you want. Just some thoughts.

[whataboutbob]

DD2 is in a Surrey grammar school. I would say 2/3 of the pupils have parents who originate in Asia, be it India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Korea, China or japan. The rest are mostly white uk or other European.
Those who are woefully underrepresented are white working class boys and Afro Caribbean boys. You could say it’s diverse but in a very unrepresentative way.

[Greenleave]

So London is opposite, local comp is truly mixed depends on the area you live however grammar schools are not at all. If her friend is also sitting definitely sharing materials saves the cost and keep them being motivated through out you can copy the books and share. There are free papers online to do too, it is just no time to do them all.

[PancakeMum6]

But yes - the schools in our part of the city are generally no more than 10-20% white. The schools in the suburbs are generally 80-90% white (with this GS being the extreme of that), so it’s an odd divide.

[PancakeMum6]

Greenleave we’re not southeast London! We’re in a different very diverse city.

[PancakeMum6]

whiteroseredrose while I don’t agree with them I’m not generally knocking grammar schools - I’m sure they work for many kids (as unfair as they are) and I know they worked for me as a young person (but then my only alternative was a true secondary modern). My DD is just more accustomed to a livelier atmosphere and I think would be better suited to a laid back approach to academia.

sendsummer but it’s representative of our neighbourhood/part of the city - on our street of about 40 houses myself, DD2, DD4 and DD5 are the only white British people. There’s a white Polish family and then everyone else is either Pakistani, Indian (including my half Indian DD3), Bangladeshi, Syrian, or from Jordan. DD1 is the only mixed African/White British as well. The school represents this - it’s not disproportionately populated with one race/class unlike the GS. It’s got the mix that represents the lovely, vibrant community

I’m confident DD will thrive if she does go to the comp because she’s very similar academically and socially to DD1, who had the most wonderful 7 years there and came out with amazing grades. My experience is that the school puts a lot of focus on pushing its high achievers because they’re a small group, but also knows how to look after them and not pile on pressure.

The pastoral aspect is also very important - this school has really bent over backwards to facilitate my DDs pastorally (not to dripfeed but oldest 3 are adopted and DH passed away a few years ago - DD5 was just 6). I’ve heard very negative reports of the student support at the GS.

She will still have the grammar school option when open days and applications roll round. I don’t think she’ll be choosing it though and I’m relieved about that.

[Greenleave]

We have been to few grammar schools around London for both real and mock tests and grammar school definitely less mixed(90% at least or so is Asian...yours sounds like Southeast London and my friends’ children go there and definitely none of the school has more white than mixed, white might be 5-10% max. Definitely not something you need to worry about. We want mixed too, truly mixed (all races) however I havent seen that from grammar schools (or at least the super selective ones).
If she wants to try then she needs to practise(from our experience), read alot more, learn some of yr6 maths new concepts. She doesnt need a tutor as all the materials can be easily bought from Amazon if she has a table and quiet time at home. As everyone said earlier, she could always decide later if she wants to go when there is choice. The test costs nothing, only the materials however all the subjects are foundation (maths and english and VR) and will help her massively at secondary school regardless of schools she is going to.

[sendsummer]

Happy that your DD’s decision appears more in keeping with what you think would best fit her.
TBH it does n’t sound as though either the grammar school or her sisters’ comprehensive are well suited to her academically. I agree with the concerns of whitecatsblackcats. It can be a struggle as a parent having to continually push against a desire to fit in that has negative consequences on developing the habit of effort.
Also it is great that you are able to have the advantages of the diversity of your neighbourhood but a school with over 60% FSM, 91% English not first language does not represent the complete mix of the real world any more than the grammar school does.

[whiteroseredrose]

Looks like your DD has made her decision which sounds like it's for the best.

I was going to say that if she likes chaos then a Grammar is not the right place. People send their DC there because there's little disruption. Don't knock it. It'd be right for some DC and wrong for others including your DD.

[whitecatsandblackcats]

She definitely doesn’t want to be viewed as ‘smart’ - she was making mistakes on purpose in some of her English work last year because she didn’t like it when the teacher read her work out.

^^ This would worry me sending her to the comp. If she is shy about looking too smart in comparison to her peers won't she deliberately perform less well and achieve less?

My dad didn't let me take the grammar school test and I went to a failing comp and did really badly. I've never forgiven him.

[marytuda]

Have loved reading this thread for the reasons ChocolateWombat mentions (about most GS threads) above, and love the OP as a rare person on MN education who gets it re diversity, not just a buzzword but something highly beneficial to all schoolkids indeed future society as a whole . .And that’s diversity in every way, ethnicity social academic or physical ability you name it. Like her I would willingly sacrifice a few A*s at GCSE for a well balanced happy teenager who accepts him/herself as they are and neither disparages nor envies those with different abilities or backgrounds. Segregated education- whatever it’s based on - promotes hierarchy and snobbery, indeed that’s its justification (Some Are More Equal Than Others). I’m not judging any individual’s choice here, indeed I think in OPs case I would let DD try for the GS while making clear she understands my reservations- all of them - about the place. Good mental health, a broad social experience facilitating an easy sociability with all wins out over academic point scoring every time, in professional life too I bet . . I think your DD will turn out fine whatever she does now OP. Her brilliant sisters would put her in her place if she ever started getting any ideas about GS kids being superior!