Should teachers shout at kids?

[Mich0027]

Genuinely interested in everyone's opinion as to whether it's acceptable for teachers to shout, angrily, at secondary age children. Actually, specifically year 7 - but am interested in general opinions ...

RolyRocks I agree that OP needs to address her son's defiant behaviour and sharpish. But as you say, 8 weeks into a new school and things are going so wrong - I don't think trying to arrange a meeting is unreasonable at all, parents and schools SHOULD be working together and communicating. If the school are ignoring OP's attempts to engage with them that is a concern imo.

I also think isolation is overused and can be counterproductive, but that's another thread.

Mich0027

Yes my son was behaving defiantly but

There is the issue right there.

still... it's further damaged the relationship between teacher and student.

That is of course nothing to do with your Ds's behaviour, its all the teacher

Of course I feel immediately affronted by it but o want to be reasonable to the teacher too.

Then back the teacher and tackle the reason for the shouting, your son's behaviour.

Can't be an easy job

And you won't be making it any easier unless you back the teacher and stop your son's poor behaviour.

Greensleeves I am not against going in to meet with the school. I am against going in with the view to challenge the issue of the ‘shouting’ and not to discuss how DS can inprove, as you say.

Good grief 30+ teens and pre-teens 5 or 6 times a day with several being defiant/cocky/rude/doing anything but learn. Oh I'd have the odd shout too.

Please help the school.get the best behaviour out of your son. It's his bloody future they are trying to help with. Not something to do between 8.30 and 3.15.

Just out of interest OP- how upset was your son? Did he cry or was he outraged and finger pointing?

In my experience, the first is a child who has been shouted at without good reason and the second is a little monkey trying to deflect any blame from themselves.

I do shout. But there is a difference between shouting to get the kid’s attention, screaming because you’ve lost control and speaking forcefully to a student who is unwilling to accept their responsibility in trashing a lesson.

I’ve only ever lost my rag totally once in the classroom and I think I scared myself more than anything else. If the teacher lost it to that extent then it would have taken a lot of goading from your son to get her there. Can you try to imagine how the other students, who just wanted to get on with their lesson felt about your son trashing any chance of meaningful learning that lesson?

tbh you are focusing on the wrong part. By focusing on should the teacher have shouted at him, you are lessening the focus on his defiant and inappropriate behaviour. You are also sending him all the wrong messages. Many teachers act angry when it is appropriate. With some children showing them in this way how utterly terrible their behaviour is can be very shocking and thought provoking for them especially if the teacher is generally very calm and measured. It does however depend on the child. I am a teacher and because I very rarely appear angry, children know that if I do raise my voice it is for a good reason. That said I would never be intimidating by shouting in a child's face. The point here is that you only have your defiant child's word for it that it happened in this way. Focus on his issues because if he was behaving no one would raise their voice to him, not you nor his teacher.

I’ve worked in Student Support in a secondary for the last 10 years.

By October half term Y7 boys have settled in and some are flexing their muscles (usually metaphorically but sometimes not) to show who is top dog in the playground and who isn’t afraid to take the teachers on.

I promise you, the kids who are still taking the teachers on and still spending time in detentions and isolations by Y11 are those with parents who chose to focus on how their darlings are being treated rather than what led to the consequences of their actions.

Do your son a favour and back the school.

No, I don't think they should shout at children because the badly behaved children don't care, it's ineffective. However the more sensitive and anxious children who are well behaved can be really upset by it. If you have one of these children it doesn't matter how much you tell them it wasn't aimed at them and to let it wash over them etc they will be stressed and anxious meanwhile the badly behaved kid think it's funny to have made the teachers loose it

As a teacher, I try to manage poor behaviour through good lesson planning. Basically, I take responsibility for poor behaviour.

If my lesson plans work, I never need to shout.

Whenever I have shouted, it has been an act, rather than from anger.

Thanks for all posts. The defiance was refusing to participate in rugby and I've been trying to work with the school on this for several weeks. No problems with my sons behaviour in any other lessons or areas of school. My son was significantly upset and cried at school after this. I'm not going to be defensive or aggressive or lay blame with the teacher as clearly my son refused to follow an instruction and that's against the rules. However, I don't see how shouting at him helps tbh!

Why doesn’t he want to do rugby?
He can’t just refuse to comply.

Well if your son behaved he wouldn't bee to be shouted at. You say he was defiant but to what degree. He must have really pushed the teachers buttons for this to happen. Have a word with your son and expect him to have higher behaviour standards than be affronted

And while your son was being defiant what was happening with the rest of the class. Were they expected to be stood on the sidelines watching your sons disrespectful behaviour?

Unless you have a medical condition that precludes playing Rugby then he has to join in with the millions of boys before him who have all had to suffer through it. Tell him to [gendered phrase alert] man the hell up and get on with it. He might even enjoy it once he gets going.

Screaming in the ear is a little OTT, but students have to get a grip on the basic premise of "Not doing what the teacher has told you to do = punishment" because otherwise they're setting themselves up for a very, very, very difficult 8 years or possibly more.

I'm currently a PGCE student training to teach a semi practical subject at Secondary. My school mentor has actually told me that shouting should be part of my toolkit and it is something teachers should use to help them manage the classroom.

When you say refusing to participate in rugby- how do you mean? There's a difference between not bringing your kit and quietly sitting out (although this would still attract a punishment) and actively being defiant in the lesson by refusing to participate. Depending on what he was doing, it may be a safety issue.

I do know that there are lots of issues with school-boy rugby, but it's really unlikely he will get injured in PE lessons. Will you let him opt out of maths or English if he doesn't like that, too?

Thanks to teacher experienced commenters it's good to hear it's actually part of the toolkit. I'll meet with the teacher (am anyway- not about the shouting) and see how I can help manage this in school

CraftyGin
As a teacher, I try to manage poor behaviour through good lesson planning.

Most teachers do

Basically, I take responsibility for poor behaviour.

even those that go out of their way to destroy your lessons?
The ones that are never quiet?
The ones that that shout across the classroom?

When do you get the pupils to take responsibility for their actions?

Shouting at a child who is consistently refusing to participate in one sport sounds like frustration rather than a planned tactic to me, and unlikely to be a helpful strategy. And in fact didn't work. It definitely needs a meeting to plan next steps.

I think the persistent out right refusal to participate in Rugby with no reasons given is definitely enough of a reason. Especially if this has been going on for weeks.

I think the only reason to use "planned shouting" as it were, is to deploy the element of surprise. It works pretty well in the right situation.

I don't see why shouting in this situation would be likely to actually work. And it didn't.

Shouting in frustration happens of course, and is entirely understandable. Out and out defiance is infuriating. But it's not a good reason to do it.

From the little you have shared it sounds like your sons defiance has caused this. He needs to not be defiant and follow instructions. How about you focus on your sons behaviour and not the teachers reaction. (when your son sees that your reaction is to complain about the teacher, this will further enshrine in his mind that he is right to be defiant).

This 100%. Your son's defiance should be your focus.

Shouting s poor discipline. Shows loss of control. There are many other ways to get order

My initial reaction, both as a teacher and as a mum of a dd whose learning has been disrupted by defiant pupils, was to feel some sympathy for the teacher and to wonder what your son had done that led to him being shouted at.

But your update reminded me of your previous thread.

I think that there's a world of difference between a disruptive pupil who affects the learning of others and a basically good kid who is generally well behaved but finds contact sports intimidating.

I was rubbish at P.E., hated it at secondary school and - even though I left 35 years ago still have horrible vivid memories of it. Hockey incurred the risk of being shouted at by the talented competitive girls and being hit on the shins by hockey sticks. I soon learned to run up and down the edge of the pitch keeping well away from the ball. Cricket could also lead to being shouted at by "team mates" if you missed a catch or dropped a ball. When fielding, I worked at which angle the ball was unlikely to be hit so that I knew where to stand to keep out of the ball's way.

I think that your son needs to try develop similar tactics to get through the remaining ruby lessons (hopefully there aren't too many left). He needs to make sure that he's getting changed, looking busy and active but avoiding contact as much as possible.

I do know that there are lots of issues with school-boy rugby, but it's really unlikely he will get injured in PE lessons.
Actually, the OP's previous thread attracted comments by posters with rugby experience who said that there are risks, particularly for a nervous child.

Your son was deliberately defiant and you are getting annoyed at the teacher for shouting at him? I suggest you stop getting mad at the teacher and have a serious word with your son about behaving properly.

Your entire focus needs to be on why your son feels he can refuse to do as he is told. If this is addressed robustly then you will minimise future problems.
If your focus is on how the teacher responds then your son will learn that as long as he can ensure he manipulates the discussion to the teacher “being in the wrong” then you will end up with gargantuan issues later on.