Should teachers shout at kids?

[Mich0027]

Genuinely interested in everyone's opinion as to whether it's acceptable for teachers to shout, angrily, at secondary age children. Actually, specifically year 7 - but am interested in general opinions ...

[AuntieUrsula]

One of the things DD3 (who admittedly is not as resilient as I would like) finds stressful about school is shouty teachers, and she does seem to have a couple who shout constantly (at kids not paying attention, messing about etc). The fact that they're not shouting at her doesn't seem to matter - it's still creating an atmosphere she finds uncomfortable.

Really I just wish that those kids (and there seem to be a few in every class) who spend the entire lesson shouting out, chatting, harassing their neighbours and generally just being disruptive would just settle down!

[FoxyDog1234]

If it’s an accidental misdemeanour ect or something not serious such as talking , shouting out once or twice then I think I calm word with the child would be fine . If they are purposely misbehaving and testing the boundaries and doing things such as being purposely cheeky , shouting out multiple silly comments then instead of losing your temper you should send them outside so you’re able to explain how disruptive or rude they’re being . This avoids embarrassment and diffuses the situation a bit . I know with my DS , she’s hardly ever shouted at as the teachers know it won’t work . Instead , politely asking her to stand outside while she calms down from a laughing fit or when she’s in an extremely talkative or shouty outy mood seems to do the trick . Pupils tend to try harder to behave if you put more of an effort in to understand there situation

[cariadlet]

I'm glad you've managed to sort things. Hopefully football will be less scary for your son than rugby was.

[Mich0027]

I went and met the teacher yesterday so I could get he measure of him myself. He does like the sound of his own voice haha. We had a good discussion and both parties (teacher
And son) have agreed to start with a clean slate next week. Rugby has finished for now so it's football next week thankfully 😅

[DinkyDaisy]

I think the issue is the fear of rugby here.
[May have missed a post somewhere, so apologies if so].
Does that need to be the discussion?
My ds dislikes contact rugby and now in year 9 does not have to play it but actually does sport in a mixed group of boys and girls doing other sports. [The girls do get the opportunity to play rugby as well I hasten to add!].
He liked tag rugby but spent the entire time avoiding the ball or getting rid of it, super fast, in any direction to avoid being tackled in contact rugby. He played but not an asset to the team I don't think. Dislikes football as well. Loving other sports though...

[Hisaishi]

Raising your voice to get attention, fine. Shouting as punishment - don't know what the point is, it doesn't work. The other day a teacher in my school yelled at a kid for 20 minutes straight (I could hear from the next room). Do you think his behaviour was different the next day? No, it was not.

If I am telling my kids off, I do it quickly (under 30 seconds) and normally basically whispering because I find they actually pay more attention (and are more terrified) if I do that.

[AlliKaneErikson]

After witnessing a pupil throw a chair at the window I’m pretty sure I was justified to shout in that situation. Of course it’s not good to shout all the time but there are situations where it is unserstandable. I think many people would be horrified if they saw what teachers have to put up with day to day (it certainly wouldn’t be tolerated in many professions).

[ASauvignonADay]

Sometimes you have to shout to be heard.

[MaisyPops]

Raised voice or shouting is the difference to me.

I worked with someone who when they'd shout it was clear they'd lost their temper and they'd be seething after it for a while. I often thought that was out of order.

Equally most staff I know (me included) have a strong raised voice which can be used appropriately. It always seems to amaze students when you go from 'raised, firm and serious' to 'happy, calm and positive' in less than 10 seconds.

In the context OP I would say how I would speak would depend on the attitude the student gave (e.g. If they were flat out refusing to do something in my lesson then I'd probably send them out to be collected by a member of senior leadership / work with head of department and my tone would be firm but not raised. It would be very much a case of 'this is not a discussion I am having with you right now'.
If they were flat refusing to do something and being rude and disruptive with heaps of attitude then I'd be using a raised firm voice.)

Often in this situations there's more to it than meets the eye.

[Cauliflowersqueeze]

Your entire focus needs to be on why your son feels he can refuse to do as he is told. If this is addressed robustly then you will minimise future problems.
If your focus is on how the teacher responds then your son will learn that as long as he can ensure he manipulates the discussion to the teacher “being in the wrong” then you will end up with gargantuan issues later on.

[Kokeshi123]

Your son was deliberately defiant and you are getting annoyed at the teacher for shouting at him? I suggest you stop getting mad at the teacher and have a serious word with your son about behaving properly.

[cariadlet]

My initial reaction, both as a teacher and as a mum of a dd whose learning has been disrupted by defiant pupils, was to feel some sympathy for the teacher and to wonder what your son had done that led to him being shouted at.

But your update reminded me of your previous thread.

I think that there's a world of difference between a disruptive pupil who affects the learning of others and a basically good kid who is generally well behaved but finds contact sports intimidating.

I was rubbish at P.E., hated it at secondary school and - even though I left 35 years ago still have horrible vivid memories of it. Hockey incurred the risk of being shouted at by the talented competitive girls and being hit on the shins by hockey sticks. I soon learned to run up and down the edge of the pitch keeping well away from the ball. Cricket could also lead to being shouted at by "team mates" if you missed a catch or dropped a ball. When fielding, I worked at which angle the ball was unlikely to be hit so that I knew where to stand to keep out of the ball's way.

I think that your son needs to try develop similar tactics to get through the remaining ruby lessons (hopefully there aren't too many left). He needs to make sure that he's getting changed, looking busy and active but avoiding contact as much as possible.

I do know that there are lots of issues with school-boy rugby, but it's really unlikely he will get injured in PE lessons.
Actually, the OP's previous thread attracted comments by posters with rugby experience who said that there are risks, particularly for a nervous child.

[Labradoodliedoodoo]

Shouting s poor discipline. Shows loss of control. There are many other ways to get order

[eggofmantumbi]

From the little you have shared it sounds like your sons defiance has caused this. He needs to not be defiant and follow instructions. How about you focus on your sons behaviour and not the teachers reaction. (when your son sees that your reaction is to complain about the teacher, this will further enshrine in his mind that he is right to be defiant).

This 100%. Your son's defiance should be your focus.

[TheFallenMadonna]

I think the only reason to use "planned shouting" as it were, is to deploy the element of surprise. It works pretty well in the right situation.

I don't see why shouting in this situation would be likely to actually work. And it didn't.

Shouting in frustration happens of course, and is entirely understandable. Out and out defiance is infuriating. But it's not a good reason to do it.

[Dermymc]

I think the persistent out right refusal to participate in Rugby with no reasons given is definitely enough of a reason. Especially if this has been going on for weeks.

[TheFallenMadonna]

Shouting at a child who is consistently refusing to participate in one sport sounds like frustration rather than a planned tactic to me, and unlikely to be a helpful strategy. And in fact didn't work. It definitely needs a meeting to plan next steps.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

CraftyGin
As a teacher, I try to manage poor behaviour through good lesson planning.

Most teachers do

Basically, I take responsibility for poor behaviour.

even those that go out of their way to destroy your lessons?
The ones that are never quiet?
The ones that that shout across the classroom?

When do you get the pupils to take responsibility for their actions?

[Mich0027]

Thanks to teacher experienced commenters it's good to hear it's actually part of the toolkit. I'll meet with the teacher (am anyway- not about the shouting) and see how I can help manage this in school

[LadyLance]

I'm currently a PGCE student training to teach a semi practical subject at Secondary. My school mentor has actually told me that shouting should be part of my toolkit and it is something teachers should use to help them manage the classroom.

When you say refusing to participate in rugby- how do you mean? There's a difference between not bringing your kit and quietly sitting out (although this would still attract a punishment) and actively being defiant in the lesson by refusing to participate. Depending on what he was doing, it may be a safety issue.

I do know that there are lots of issues with school-boy rugby, but it's really unlikely he will get injured in PE lessons. Will you let him opt out of maths or English if he doesn't like that, too?

[Sethis]

Unless you have a medical condition that precludes playing Rugby then he has to join in with the millions of boys before him who have all had to suffer through it. Tell him to [gendered phrase alert] man the hell up and get on with it. He might even enjoy it once he gets going.

Screaming in the ear is a little OTT, but students have to get a grip on the basic premise of "Not doing what the teacher has told you to do = punishment" because otherwise they're setting themselves up for a very, very, very difficult 8 years or possibly more.

[ballsdeep]

And while your son was being defiant what was happening with the rest of the class. Were they expected to be stood on the sidelines watching your sons disrespectful behaviour?

[ballsdeep]

Well if your son behaved he wouldn't bee to be shouted at. You say he was defiant but to what degree. He must have really pushed the teachers buttons for this to happen. Have a word with your son and expect him to have higher behaviour standards than be affronted

[Wolfiefan]

Why doesn’t he want to do rugby?
He can’t just refuse to comply.

[Mich0027]

Thanks for all posts. The defiance was refusing to participate in rugby and I've been trying to work with the school on this for several weeks. No problems with my sons behaviour in any other lessons or areas of school. My son was significantly upset and cried at school after this. I'm not going to be defensive or aggressive or lay blame with the teacher as clearly my son refused to follow an instruction and that's against the rules. However, I don't see how shouting at him helps tbh!