Worst set of GCSE results possible at private school (really)?

[Vanguard121]

At DS’s inde boys who are less academically able but good at sports have the option to study for a sports BTEC, on the proviso they achieve Bs and Cs in their GCSEs/iGCSEs.

DS is on course to secure mostly A*s/As (and a few Bs) in his GCSEs. He’ll clear the benchmark for A-level study at the same school with some ease. But as for some of his friends… we’re not so sure.

But it got me thinking: what are the worst set of GCSE/iGCSE results ‘achieved’ at a selective inde or state grammar?

A friend’s DD achieved 4Bs 4Cs at another local inde a couple of years ago. She was distraught on results day but the school made no apologies, explaining that she had achieved far better results than she would have done at a Croydon comprehensive.

Still, I think of her poor parents after having shelled out 75 grand over 5 years…

[Snowjive]

Yes, sure, Princes Andrew and Edward got places at Cambridge because they did well in the entrance exam. I was at Cambridge with one of them. He and his security detail occupied four undergraduate rooms. He was not bright (understatement), had no conversation and did not distinguish himself. I had worked very hard to get there from a state school which rarely had Oxbridge candidates and I was furious (still am) that four places which could have gone to deserving applicants were wasted in this way.

[Clavinova]

Prince Andrew went to Cambridge?! Nonsense.

[Snowjive]

Sorry, meant to say Charles and Edward. I was there with the latter. A small mercy, I suppose, that further space wasn’t wasted by Andrew.

[Clavinova]

I wouldn't send my sons to a state school in Lewisham
Good. Wouldn't want my sons to be mixing with a child with such prejudiced parents

A 15 year old boy was stabbed to death in Lewisham last week, a gang of 30 school kids attacked a 2 policemen in the street 2 years ago. Knife searches in the schools... several well regarded girls' schools though.

[ImDivingIn]

HPFA I think that’s my point; for a very bright girl, the highly selective school would be great, but I’m sure she could do just as well in the all girls’ state school.

However, a less academically able girl would probably flounder in that environment, but still might excel at the state school because she would not be under such a lot of pressure.

It is surely about what school is right for each individual child?

[BitOutOfPractice]

What is the actual point of 12 GCSEs? That's a serious question. I just cannot see the point and 99% of state schools have given up on this kind of stuff. Because it's pointless

[Kokeshi123]

Family friend's daughter went seriously off the rails as a teenager (unsuitable boyfriends) and flunked all her exams (as in, actual failing them. U for unclassified or whatever it was in those days). She was at a private school and her education cost a LOT. On the other hand, she might have done the same at a state school. Bet her parents were pretty sore.

[happygardening]

A508Hojas you clearly haven’t read many or any of the comments I’ve made over the many years I’ve posted on the education sections on MN. I challenge you too find any comment I’ve made about state school teachers spending all their time managing feral behaviour. I have never said that every independent school is better than state ed, as I actually don’t believe this, I don’t think I have ever commented about behaviour in state education versus behaviour in independent education. I have on numerous occasions stated that many parents are paying in the belief that their DC’s will get better results than their would have got in the state sector but I’ve also saId on numerous occasions that this may not be the case, I don’t believe that the independent sector had some magic wand and can turn an average child into a genius spoon feeding or not. I have also stated in countless occasions that I believe my DS2 could have got the same exam results in a good state school of which we have numerous ones round here. I don’t believe that every child will thrive and achieve in an independent school or that every will child thrives and achieve in a state school, I’ve worked in both sectors and have seen unhappy poor achieving children in both. It’s about finding a school that suits the individual child/parent and for those of us lucky enough to be able to afford school fees our chances of finding the right school is significantly more likely. I have also said on many occasions that many of the top independent school offer an education (in the broadest sense) that is in a totally different league to that offers in the state sector and that this is inevitable because they’re charging £40k+ PA but this doesn’t mean you child will get better exam results than he would in the state sector or go into a top university. Again those of us lucky enough to be able to afford fees can if we wish too place equal importance on the concept of this “broad education” be it an truest intellectual education not limited by syllabuses or exam results or sporty musical etc. But I can also assure you many parents in the independent sector are when the chips are down are not actually overly interested in this.

[happygardening]

A507Hojas should also have said that one of my DC’s went to a state comprehensive. It a very well regarded “high achieving” state school he left with 10 GCSE’s grade C and above and then went onto a well regarded 6th form college and got three reasonable grades at A level and is now at uni. I believe he could have done better but only because he has fairly significant SEN which were never properly addressed during his time at his state school despite them the school having him fully assessed by an ed psych which detailed his needs they ignored it. But I would also be the first to admit that they would not have been met any better in a mainstream independent school.

[BertrandRussell]

Kids can go seriously off the rails wherever they go to school. I don't think it's the extremes we're talking about, is it?

[NicoAndTheNiners]

The local private school in town gets worse results and a far lower Value Added score than the best two comps in town.

It does out perform the shitty comps though.

[BertrandRussell]

And I agree, the quadrillion GCSE thing is such a diversion.

[Stripybeachbag]

I teach in an independent school. The students can still be lazy. If they don't engage and do the bare minimum of work, they will do badly. There are some parents that do expect the school to produce amazing results because they have paid for it. But if there is no way of forcing a student to remember or think if they don't want to.

[BubblesBuddy]

At my grammar school, I remember one girl in the year above got a Grade 1 for English Literature and failed everything else! You would have thought that was impossible. All results were published in the local newspaper in those days. My friend scraped 2 O levels and several in my year got 2, 3 and 4 O levels. They went into Hairdressing, Healthcare, Farming and to the college of FE to do secretarial training. Obviously they left at 16 which wasn’t particularly unusual either. The grammar had quite a broad intake and no-one expected a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Grammar school on the cv meant that even leaving at 16 you were not held back.

When parents pay, I think it is for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the extended family has not ever been to state schools, sometimes people want “people like us” at their schools and sometimes they want better results and facilities than the local schools offer. Results are never a given of course and a broad education should be available at a private school.

Lots of girls didn’t get stellar A levels at either of my DDs independent schools but the schools gave them so much more. That was the point of paying.

[LoniceraJaponica]

“She squeaked into a local non-selective inde (The parents are absolutely militant against state education)”

Interestingly, we had that dilemma when we were looking at secondary schools for DD. In the end she went to the local comprehensive, achieved mostly A*/A plus 2 Bs at GCSE, and AAA at A level. I don’t think she would have done any better at the selective private school we were considering. Also, we now have the funds to support her through university.

BTW I went to a Croydon comprehensive back in the day . And back then Coloma had the highest abortion rate in Croydon. The boys from John Ruskin loved being near Coloma.

“My argument is that it's parental back-up that helps a child, not grades necessarily. It's having parents who actually care.”

I agree. When DD started to struggle with maths because she had a shit maths teacher we sent her to a tutor. I knew she was able, but needed to work at a slower pace, and needed someone patient to explain stuff to her. We were lucky, and DD achieved an A* in maths.

I’m not sure how schools can massage their GCSE results. For A levels it is easier because they simply ask the students to leave or drop subjects they are going to fail. DD’s school did this earlier this year. In the local paper they proudly announced a 100% A level pass rate, but this was at the expense of treating some students rather shabbily.

[Emilyontmoor]

In the city I grew up in there were two spectacularly bad private schools. It wasn’t unusual for the pupils to not manage any O level at all, but they did get to wear straw boaters and learn dance and deportment. They were for the pupils who did not get into grammar school and whose parents couldn’t bear the idea of them going to a comprehensive and mixing with “rough kids” (though this was before the middle classes learnt how to play the system and the grammar schools were still managing to educate a lot of the bright “rough kids”) I have bumped into some of the former pupils and they are bitter about the lost opportunity. There are certainly still independent schools serving
that niche though they could not get away with not delivering at least some academic qualifications anymore.


The formula for an individual child to achieve their potential, however you measure that, is incredibly complicated and includes all sorts of social psychological and emotional factors as well as academic. I know of girls sent to the top girls’ schools in the country who switched to mixed schools because they couldn’t cope with the exclusive alpha girl behaviour, as in it threatened their mental health, in fact that was why the Duchess of Cambrudge left Downe House . Equally I know clever girls who have thrived in some of the worst performing comprehensives in the country, through being highly self motivated and with plenty of parental and other support. You have to make the decision on your child’s school based on their individual needs.

OP I hate to break it to you but I would not stay in Croydon because you percieve house prices are continuing to rise, ask an off duty estate agent, the outer London market is dire and only going to get worse.

[areanyusernamesleft211]

Clever kids will do well anywhere. Those who aren’t so naturally bright would no doubt benefit from smaller class sizes and more attention at a private school. Obviously private reduces the chances of associating with the riff raff, although there can still be bad influences there. The extracurricular activities and confidence building opportunities that private education provides are the real plus point, but they aren’t absolutely necessary for a successful life. People are free to make their own choices for their children, finance permitting, and no doubt make them thinking they are doing the best for them. That’s all we can do.

[lyndar]

@SleepingStandingUp Absolutely, but it will oy even be a daffodil, not an orchid. Not everyone is able to be an orchid / brain surgeon / rocket scientist / straight A* student
I disagree with that -I think environment is essential- yes some brains are inherently wired better but that is a rarity

[lyndar]

@Emilyontmoor agree with what you said

[happygardening]

"The extracurricular activities and confidence building opportunities that private education provides are a real plus point, but they aren’t absolutely necessary for a successful life."
That depends what you define as "success" my science math orientated DS2 was free and encouraged to build on his long held passion for the arts in the widest sense of the term whilst at his senior school due to their extensive daily non examined curriculum and numerous extracurricular activities. He and others would say that "art heals". He has through his young life experienced three significant bereavements in a short period of time and I'm proud to say with the help and support and I believe his love of art is successfully navigating his way through his grief.
I also genuinely that art literature music can change how we look at the world and those around us it can make us a more rounded individual this may help us be be more successful in our relationships our jobs as well as our ability to cope with all the things that life throws at us.
There is also plenty of evidence that exercise/activity is good for our MH again hopefully enabling us to successfully navigate our way through life developing an interest in a sport often starts at school when hopefully we have more time.
On a daily basis I sadly see children with MH concerns many are very serious may have poor coping mechanisms or useful/beneficial outlets for their unhappiness. I frequently wonder and worry about how they are going to manage as adults when they will have even less support than that have now so maybe "extracurricular activities" that "private education provides" are more than a "real plus point,"

[SleepingStandingUp]

yes some brains are inherently wired better but that is a rarity
If Envt was all that was needed then there would be no kids doing crap at private and kids doing well at comps.

I was a very smart child. I was raised in the same family as my sister who was average. Same opportunities toearn and in fact she possibly had more as our parents were together for more of her life. We went to the same school and had largely the same teachers. I I'd considerably better than her at the same age, and most of my class bar one other kid who had had a turbulent childhood and was now in Foster care so had moved to our school. There was othing environmental to make us more orchid like.

In contrast I then went on to a very good school where at GCSE level we beat Eton on results. I did fairly average compared to classmates getting all A*'s. Our teaching was identical although obv larger variety in hgomelife, mental health, tutor support. I still did better than my sister. I'm def only a daffodil though 😂
Clearly daffodils and orchids was an off the cuff largely jokey comment but I do think seed quality is important even if less so than the soil and water.

[lebkuchenlover]

Still, I think of her poor parents after having shelled out 75 grand over 5 years…

But just imagine what grades she would have achieved if she had gone to an underperforming state school with large classes, disruptive behaviour and less good teaching?

Maybe the 75 grand was the best investment they could have made!

[Tinty]

A friend’s DD achieved 4Bs 4Cs at another local inde a couple of years ago. She was distraught on results day but the school made no apologies, explaining that she had achieved far better results than she would have done at a Croydon comprehensive.

Still, I think of her poor parents after having shelled out 75 grand over 5 years…

They must have had an inkling though with mocks and previous results of tests etc, I would have thought.

Maybe as the private school said she would have done much worse and come away with E's or U's if she had gone to the local comprehensive.

A friend of my fathers was asked to take his Daughters out of the local private school and advised to send them to the local state school instead, because they couldn't keep up with the work and were falling further and further behind.

I thought this was quite sensible because, why pay a lot of money to educate your daughter's privately, if it is just being wasted as they were not going to achieve any differently than if they had just gone to a state school.

But another friend pointed out it was a way for the Private school to get rid of the students who would bring their results down. I suspect they make the selective entrance tests harder to try and avoid this.

[TigerDrankAllTheWaterInTheTap]

People always talk as if all state schools are the same and all independent schools are the same, when it's obvious even from this one thread that they vary a lot.

Some private schools are very academically selective, some aren't. Some specialise, whether they advertise it or not, in children who wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance in passing the 11+ or getting into a very academic independent school. What they provide is small class sizes, individual attention, good SEN support (the better ones, anyway), orderly environment and wraparound care/extra-curricular activities. If the child passes the key GCSEs so much the better. You can't judge a school like this by the same standards as (say) St Paul's Girls' School or Westminster.

Similarly, when it comes to state schools, many are great and do a good job with children of all abilities. Let's not pretend, though, that all do.

[Talkinpeece]

GCSEs did not exist when I went to school
BUT
At my private, selective gels school
at A level
out of 40 pupils in my year, 17 had to retake to get into their desired courses.
The highest achieving girl in my year (who is now quite famous) is incredibly rude about the standard of teaching we had.

Anybody who thinks that private school magically makes things better is utterly kidding themselves

And I deeply resent the insinuations about comp kids.
Both mine are doing pure science degrees at top200 universities
better then I did