Renting in catchment area and owning outside it

[CauliflowerBalti]

We are moving to the catchment area of my son’s current primary school in order for him to continue his education with his peers at the secondary school within that area.

We were hoping to move there in 5 years’ time when I will have a lump of money to put into a mortgage, but the secondary school is getting more and more oversubscribed. The time apparently is now.

His application needs to be in by the end of October, so it’s all happening rather fast. I have no intention of committing fraud. We are moving to live there for beyond his education years. But renting for at least a year, if not more.

I do not want to sell the home we live in now. My husband and I had a big disagreement about moving at the start of the year. He wanted to, I didn’t. We stayed, and did some lovely renovations. This is a lovely house. I don’t want to leave it yet - but I will.

I want to rent it out for a decade or so, then gift it to my son. That’s my plan.

Does anyone have any idea how I can prove to the LA that I’m not cheating my way in? It’s so important to my son that he stays with his peers. He’s a very anxious soul. We need to move. But we’ve left it late. I may not have found a tenant for here by 31 October. I may still be paying council tax in two places. It worries me. I rang the LA to ask, and was totally honest, and she was very lovely and said I just needed to prove that my rented house is my permanent and only home. I will easily be able to do that - it will be. But what if I end up under the nose of someone less tolerant?

Has anyone experienced this?

[CauliflowerBalti]

I’m cool with facts. The woman I spoke to said renting our current home out wouldnt be a problem as long as we could prove we were living fully in catchment. So if I sound defensive over accusations of cheating, it’s because she didn’t mention anything about cheating.

It’s only reading scare stories that made me ask the question. And really I just need to talk to someone else in admissions for a second opinion, because different areas clearly have different rules.

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

Did the woman you spoke to mention how you could prove any of this? And who was this woman?

Maybe if you gave some specifics somebody on here could help.

Having read many MN posts on catchment, that is an up hill task and will require something concrete. Good luck, only thing I can think to advise is get her assurances in writing.

[CauliflowerBalti]

I have the woman’s name but I confess I do not know whether she’s head of admissions or the work experience girl. Though she’s a mature student if she is.

She said I wouldn’t have to prove I wasn’t living in the old house - just that I am living in the new one. She said they’d need council tax bills, a rental agreement and something like a GP registration.

My mind was set at ease. All these things will be possible. Then I started reading about authorities refusing admissions even with these documents (though down south, not in my area) and I panicked.

I’ll call again on Monday and get very specific assurance.

[CauliflowerBalti]

And I’ll report back - it will be interesting either way.

[caroldecker]

Why does selling the house prevent your son getting a hand up? Can't you invest the money for him?

[CauliflowerBalti]

It doesn’t. I think I’m just being sentimental. I spoke to a mortgage adviser last week and she talked about keeping the house, converting to buy to let mortgage (which would actually be proof, right? I can’t live there then...), taking £20k out toward new house... it all sounded good.

But I could just save the mortgage payments in a savings account for him. Or invest all the equity for him. Though then we’d struggle for a deposit.

It might be that when we sit down and do all the numbers for new home purchase, we can’t affird to keep old one. I’m not a fan of overcommitting financially. But I love the house. It looked after me when I was alone with my boy. I looked after it. I might just be in the throes of moving on. Everyone feels sad about leaving houses behind, yeah? I can help my boy on other ways...

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

If she is involved with admissions you really need something in writing. You really cant trust such an important decision on someones word over the telephone.

So obviously get GP letters, rental agreement, council tax and all the utilities etc, but it will be a gamble and you wont wont know until offers are sent out.

Sorry, it sounds like you are doing everything right but admissions is like a fight in the lions den. You need to get guarantees before you risk your DCs school place.

Good luck.

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

converting to buy to let mortgage (which would actually be proof, right? I can’t live there then...)
No it is not, as its quite straightforward to get the banks permission for an owner to live in their buy to let property.

I would support selling the house and investing the money for your DCs future. The house is just sentimental.

[Dontblameitontheboogie]

ALL I wanted to know is how I can prove to the LA that the rental property isn't and won't be our home ever again.

You can’t. And chances are they won’t b interested in detailed explanations. Our LA was clear: if you own a house nearby then that’s the address we’ll use. Period.

In our case it didn’t matter, but I’d never do what you’re proposing. Most likely it won’t work and you’ll have gone through the expense and hassle of moving, only to end up with a disappointed DC.

[Momzilla82]

You'd also be liable for CGT on the increase in value, need to file self assessment for the rental income (which has become horribly complex with phasing out of mortgage interest relief), and I believe there's extra stamp duty liable for the purchase of a second home. As an accidental landlord and owner of a surplus home; sell the first. It's simpler. It's also then impossible to be seen as cheating a system

[CauliflowerBalti]

I already have to do self assessments - ugh - but the rest of the points, yes.

Ok. Maybe I’m not going to be a property magnate.

[Schroedingerscatagain]

Derby and Derbyshire have a few particularly good schools which are heavily over subscribed

Consequently rental properties in those catchments are often yearly turn over with people trying to do as you plan to

The authorities are very wise to this here, some addresses automatically flag on systems

The fact is you want to have your cake and eat it, keep your property you own and rent another

you never actually mention selling and buying another house so it could appear that you plan to move back at some point

A few years ago a parent of my dd’s friend thought of doing the same as you, renting out a house owned in Belper and renting a property to live at in Duffield (for Ecclesbourne and William Gilbert)

Derbyshire made it clear to her that unless the house was for sale it would be treated as her application address because it would be seen as a fraudulent application

[Beach11]

You need to check the admissions policy for the school or LA if still under LA control. Where I live you have to have live at the current address 18months prior to application and submit council tax bill, 2 utility bills, bank statements and rental agreement or Morgage statement for those 18months.
Good luck

[admission]

What you are proposing to do, does carry a level of risk because so many LAs have been tricked in the past around rental properties and owned properties. More and more LAs will insist on using the address of the owned property, no matter what the circumstances . I do not know what Derbyshires policy is on this and even if you get it confirmed in writing, what the admission office might do with your application, when it actually comes to allocation of a place, may be different from what they have said to you.

I would get into the rented accommodation well in front of the 31st October deadline for on-time applications, so that you can ask for the three preferences that you want as secondary schools. Ideally you should sell the owned house (and i can see all sorts of issues around giving it to your son in the future but that is a different conversation) by 31st October but being realistic that is not going to happen. You should therefore get it rented out before the 31st October, with a rental period that is at least a year, so that it shows that you will not be moving back into it before your child starts at the school.
Normally the LA has a further later date than 31st October (often the middle of December) which is for people moving houses but I cannot find that in any of the literature for Derbyshire LA, so you do need to be very sure that everything is organised by October 31st or you will potentially be treated as a late application and go to the back of the admission queue.

[CauliflowerBalti]

Thanks for your advice, admission. I really appreciate it. What do you think the LA would think if my house was for sale on 31 Oct? We intend everything to be sorted this month. Once we are in the rented house, we can prepare ours for it’s next move. If selling, I guess by end of Sept it will be on the market.

Schroedingerscatagain - I’ve mentioned several times in this thread that we want to buy in the catchment area - I was just looking at what’s for sale actually - but I can’t sell mine and buy another realistically by 31 October. I could buy something without an onward chain, I guess. But that’s narrowing our options considerably. I can be in catchment in a rental by 31 Oct though, then look for something that suits to buy. We have a 6 month rental agreement to start with.

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

Do you have a contingency plan for being allocated a school based on your permanent home? What will you do if the only school left is a really bad one? It is not a gamble I would take.

[Rainbowqueeen]

Honestly OP, just reading as someone who has no involvement with LAs or allocating schools, you do sound like ypu are trying to do something dodgy.

In one breath you say you want to keep the house for your son and in another you say you intend to buy in catchment but the reason ypu haven't done it is because you didn't want to have a bigger mortgage. Well owning 2 houses, even with a tenant in one will mean that you have a much bigger mortgage, or two!

I agree if you mean to rent you should get your current house on the market, get a rental with a long lease and do it soon. And even then I would still be worried until I got the offer.



Good luck with your conversation in Monday and yes, get it in writing or ask her to tell you exactly what sentence in the admissions criteria she is relying on to give you the advice she is giving. Take detailed notes of the phone conversation

[Schroedingerscatagain]

I think they will view a 6 month rental as very dodgy, and if renting from September you could if something happens be not in the property on allocations day at the start of March

[CauliflowerBalti]

I know it doesn’t matter whether anyone here believes me or not - but I have always intended to buy in the area, I just wanted to wait until I had a bigger deposit, because of the two mortgages thing. The more I have as a deposit, the smaller the mortgage - obviously. I also realise this makes me sound v rich, but both mortgages together would be around £300k, which is less than many people’s one mortgage. I’m clearly not poor. Just not Daddy Warbucks either. I don’t want to live in rented accommodation for a long time. I like knocking walls down and remodelling bathrooms too much.

Schroedingers - 6 month contracts are standard for new tenants. They need to be sure I’m not a devil worshipper, sacrificing goats in their lounge. That’s why, if I rented mine, it would be ideal if it were one of the three people I know that want it and do not sacrifice livestock, so I could offer them a longer tenancy with a break clause and remove any sense of ‘bolthole’.

If the worst came to the worst - I’m already driving into catchment every day. I could drive out to the offered school if he doesn’t get in - but then at least he’d see his lifelong friends after school every day. And obviously make new ones at the offered school. Clutching at straws because that’s not ideal.

You guys are scaring me though. We should probably just sell.

[MissWimpyDimple]

Seriously, no one is trying to be difficult, but what you are saying you are going to do is EXACTLY what LAs want to avoid.

It's fair enough that you intend to stay in catchment but everyone says that!

You might get away with it, but you really might not.

You are playing the system and that often backfires! (Rightly so!)

[popcorndiva]

It's not Littleover is it? As that is heavily oversubscribed now because it's one of the few schools on Derby that is not failing

[Schroedingerscatagain]

Op

I’m not trying to scare or upset you, I live on the cusp of Derby city and Derbyshire authorities and educate one child under each authority so have local insight as this is happens often here both at primary and secondary

I merely giving you insight into people who’ve gone before within your authority and how they have faired

It’s a well recognised route around Ecclesbourne, Littleover and chellaston and your set up will raise flags, I live 5 houses away from a rotating property used for a certain primary and it’s well recognised now as are other rental properties around Derby

I really do wish you well, I’m just trying to point out that they’ve seen this many times and will be suspicious

[Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar]

Of course it doesn’t matter whether posters here believe you or not.
But the point posters are trying to make and that you’re not listening to, is that the admissions board won’t believe you either.
And they don’t have to listen to your sob story; just apply the same rules to you as they will to everybody else.

[Snowysky20009]

I would say a 6 months rental contract will look suspicious.

[Oldowl]

Playing devil's advocate.

If OP moves out of House A (but still owns) that is an outstanding secondary area and rents the property out. She then moves into House B that is in a good secondary area with DS's friends nearby. How can the LA give a place based on House A, when DS is not physically living there?

We rented when our house was being renovated. It was uninhabitable. Both addresses were in the catchment of good primary schools. We put down the address we were physically living at as I did not want the LA knocking on a door that clearly our DS was not residing at and would not be for another year. As it happened, we renovated and sold up, so DS never lived at the house we owned, only the one we rented. It would have felt wrong to take a place from a child in that area, just because we owned the house...on the other hand we could have moved back and lived there for the next 10 years. It is a tricky one for LAs.