Total deadlock with DH over school choices!

[NW11985]

DH went to state school, state 6th form, worked his butt off, got 7 A's at A Level and went to Oxbridge getting Bsc and MA.

I went to fee-paying school (co-ed), got 2 C's and went to a mediocre regional university (though loved it).

I subsequently taught in state comprehensive schools for 20 years.

DH and I simply cannot agree on DS schooling. DH feels he himself missed out on many opportunities his contemporaries at Oxbridge had, such as all the benefits of private school ed. He wonders what he could have achieved if he's had this start in life (as if 7 A's wasn't enough)! He is therefore passionate about sending DH to private school.

I on the other hand am passionately pro state ed, and co-educational / mixed. I think our DS will get a real richness of experience from his upbringing with us as conscious parents who encourage him to do lots of activities, travel etc, and that the social benefits of attending comp with a more inclusive range of young people will make him a more rounded person (like my husband is!)

I believe my DH is brilliant because of his state ed and not in spite of it. He believes he missed out and does not want that for our son.

We are in good humour but absolutely at deadlock! We are joking about using DC2 as an experiment and sending one (mine) to state and one private (his) and then placing bets. Jokes obviously!

Please help! How on earth do we ever find a compromise or solution to this which has been going on for years!

[mastertomsmum]

My DS started off in a large Pre-Prep and Prep school. We switched to a primary school for the last 2 Yrs. When it came to choosing secondary schools we did all the state school visits and most of the independents.

Even the local branch of one of the academy franchises hereabouts could offer most of the opportunities - skiing, good school trips, links to local industry, Air Cadets etc. - that I had thought were amongst the advantages of an independent school setting. Academically the school is less good on paper but their best students have done very well.

My son could have gone to one of the private grammar schools with Yr7 being main year of entry or one of the other independents with Yr9 being the main year of entry. Instead he chose another of the local state academies.

In terms of opportunities his school has all of the same things the independent school with the best facilities - Duke of Edinburgh Awards, skiing, links to an African school, residential school trips, theatre, drama studio etc. The school is also more academic than the independent with the best facilities.

Breath of subjects is better than the most academic of the local independents, the best of which does not offer Food Tech.

Help and the pastoral side - it’s my feeling a state school almost always does this better.

Basically it just comes down to class sizes.

[DailyWailEatsSnails]

I am white, from (what Americans call) upper middle class & almost all my best buds in high school were black girls living in the ghetto & immigrant Mexicans living in overcrowded houses. The one buddy who could be called upper middle class was still Mexican (& Jewish).

Now I live 5000 miles from where I grew up. Many of my co-workers are also massive long distance transplants. That much we have in common, true.

Hence I can't imagine a life where your connections determine who you are.

[halfwitpicker]

As another state educated rugrat, I agree with your DH.

[spacecadet48]

Unfortunately Hoppinggreen the connected who do well appear to be mainly men sadly. Interestingly my eldest DS has more 'connections' from his local rugby club than he does from his private school. However some of the boys families within his private school were well connected. Some of them skipped out of school having achieved no A levels stayed and got a BTEC. Went to uni and got a pass and are now in working in the city due to someone knowing someone. I know some who didn't bother going to uni and didnt do particularly well in there A levels and are in good jobs too. My OH has alot of very upper class born into wealth individuals who have all their DC going to Eton. They have the freebie holidays every year as someone has invited them to their villa for a few weeks. They don't have to worry about money as they can sell one of their inherited paintings. Different world for most of us but they are lovely people despite moaning about the lack of proper cutlery for an omelet! (Thankfully not towards me!) My DS has already experienced it during interviews and they have spent most of it talking about rugby. Aren't most of our male top politicians part of the bulingdon club too?

[Hoppinggreen]

I went to Private School, DH didn’t
I’m not better connected than he is - he has a close friend who married into the aristocracy in fact
My friendship group is probably more diverse than his

[CruCru]

This is an interesting thread. One comment has jumped out at me - "the social benefits of attending comp with a more inclusive range of young people will make him a more rounded person".

I went to a state comprehensive - it was very good in many ways. However, I wouldn't have said that the social classes (if that is the best way of putting it) mixed all that much. Once we were in year 9 / 10, we were put into sets for almost all subjects so the kids I spent time with were those in the top sets. Some were better off than others but they all tended to be well spoken and middle class.

A friend used to teach in a school in east London and once had a parent come in to say how disappointed she was that her child had, more or less, only middle class children in her friendship group. My friend told her that, although the children are put into different groups and are encouraged to mix, the teachers do not choose their friends for them.

[DailyWailEatsSnails]

I feel very uncomfortable at idea of playing along with a system where it's not what you know but who you know that gets you success. Anyway, the vast majority of people who go to Eton don't do anything special with their lives. You could call them underachievers for that, given the supposed importance of connections.

[Bekabeech]

HPFA you could just look at the number of MPs who attended certain schools?

[HPFA]

I wonder if anyone has done any research comparing outcomes from the "top" public schools and your more standard private school? I suppose it would be hard to devise a methodology but it would be interesting to know - I would guess that the difference in terms of eventual careers etc would be as great if not more than between state and private but it would be interesting to know.

[Bekabeech]

I think you need to: look at the school options in your area (and boarding if you are considering that).
With the Private schools - what advantages do they offer? How relevant are these to your DS? And do they really offer networking opportunities? (Eton might but my local extremely high achieving boys school isn't in the same league at all, and my state school daughter seems to have very good connections there anyway.)
Then look at your local state schools, what do they offer? Are there things your DS could access from a state school that he can't if he goes to private (summer schools, Sutton Trust etc.)? What about the free time after school to join sports clubs etc? And even a possibility of contextual offers for University.

[RedSkyAtNight]

I know you are joking but what are your success criteria for your "experiment" - perhaps that might help to clarify for your both what you consider to be important in a school?

My SIL went to a top private girls school and then went on to get a degree and PhD at Oxbridge. She then worked for 2 years, fell pregnant and has been a SAHM ever since with no intention of this ever changing. She is still passionately pro-private education because she thinks she got so much out of it (though has never been able to quantify "why" to me!).

[HPFA]

It's interesting that on other threads we see people saying that choosing private is not about buying privilege for your kids but about smaller classes, extra curricula etc. Yet here we have people openly saying that going private is about making connections for success in later life?

[spacecadet48]

NW11985 my OH is exactly the same as your DH. My OH was a very high achieving state school kid who skipped out with As and studied medicine. (not heard of within his school). He is aggrieved as he was offered 6th form scholarships for private but his DF didnt agree with private. (DF supports all his GC going private now though!) My OH still feels that he missed out. He is a consultant and is around a lot of colleagues who went to public school and oxbridge unis and he describes them as a 'club' which he is not part of. They get offered any of the associate and director roles in his trust etc. Obviously not all across the country are like that but I am merely commenting on where my DH works. He feels the same as your DH that you make connections and it is these that help you in life. He has a mission for all our DC to go private after primary. We have 2 DC who went private, one now in uni and the 2 other DC are starting in September. His DB has exactly the same view as my OH, he was high achieving also and he has 4 DC too and they are all in private and their eldest starts in cambridge this year too. Whether it will make a difference in the long term is yet to be seen. I find it interesting that neither my OH or his DB went private, both high achieving but really feel they missed out. I myself went to a little state school in Scotland and I was not high achieving academically but have done well in my chosen career path. Good luck with your choices,

[NW11985]

Sorry for typos - in a rush! *Managed obviously - not mangled!

[NW11985]

Thank you everyone for these responses - a very interesting discussion.
In answer to some previous questions:
DailyWailEatsSnails DH believes that he missed out on good 'connections' which would have helped him get a leg up in his field. He saw his privately educated Oxbridge contemporaries benefiting from networks he did not have access to which supported them on the first rung of career progression - what I would call and old boys' club. (Makes me feel deeply uncomfortable). He has done incredibly well in his career by himself but I think he believes it would have been easier.
Also, DH benefited and was very fortunate to have parents to ferried him about to all sorts of extra curricular things, sports, drama, school trips and so on, so it wasn't all academic and he mangled this without private school.
Contrary to Witchend's experience, DH remained friends with a group of school friends from disadvantaged backgrounds and he himself has a single Mum living in a council house. This is in addition to his Oxbridge clan.
Snowcatrunsthehouse I'm using it to avoid specifics, and to be clear as Oxbridge is specific type of education unlike other Russell group uni's.
Also I should add / clarify that I did go on to obtain an MA and an MSc so wasn't a complete flop, but I was a late developer academically. For me I believe anyone can achieve academic success if they are so inclined and have the support, and for me it is all about the socialisation / political aspect.

[DailyWailEatsSnails]

About social mixing... I might start a thread about that! I suspect 70% of us end up mixing with "our own kind" almost all the time, but I'm in the 5% who at times goes wildly different. DC are a mixed bag.

[claraschu]

I like the first comment you got, OP.

I would add to it that, in my experience, you don't pick a school, send your child to it , pick a secondary school, send your child to it, and not worry too much in between. Our 3 kids all had complicated mixtures of schools, including state, private, and periods of home schooling. Our decisions were affected by unforeseen things like bullying, the need for a specialist arts school, and significant chronic illness. Other people I know have had to cope with kids who have serious school phobias. Then there are people who have just sent their kids to the local schools, not worried too much, and it has been great for them. I think it depends on your character and parenting style, as well as the luck you have had with the problems and strengths of your particular kids.

One thing that shouldn't influence you too much is your own experience in school, which really has nothing to do with it.

[peteneras]

". . .using DC2 as an experiment and sending one (mine) to state and one private (his) and then placing bets."

Ehh. . . my life savings all on your husband's please!

[Witchend]

the social benefits of attending comp with a more inclusive range of young people will make him a more rounded person
It slightly amuses me when people put this.
Dh is very pro-state school for this reason. He went to a state comprehensive.
However he was most put out when I pointed out that all the people he got on with/has kept in touch with are very much like him: The home owners, white middle class males. In fact I don't think he mixed much with anyone else at school.

I went to a small private in the days of assisted places and mixed and have kept up with a far greater variety of people. I didn't realise it at the time, but looking back I can see that.

[MartaHamm]

I agree with previous posters. You could first see what options/offers you have and then compare, see what suits your child better and if you still disagree let your child decide. We always said we would pay private for secondary education but in the end are going state as we were impressed with the school we were allocated (and despite receiving and offer from our preferred independent). But I know some who are doing the opposite as they don’t like the state options available/allocated and are going private against their original plan.

[Rudi44]

To echo what others said it isn't state vs indi, it's about looking at the secondary school your DS is likely to be allocated and deciding if that is going to be the right school for him.

I was hugely pro comprehensive and actually for various reasons independent didn't sit entirely well with me until DD wasn't allocated any of our choices and was given a place at an underperforming school that was one of only two in our city that was under subscribed. Had we received any of our three picks we would happily have packed her off there.

[DailyWailEatsSnails]

So what opportunities will your child have that your DH reckons he missed?
Music, sport, drama? Does he wish he attained much less academically?

After almost 12 yrs in state schools, DD campaigned hard to go to expensive private 6th form. She will be much too busy studying, determined to get very top grades, to do much of those ex-Currics, when she switches from state to private sector. What if you have another highly academic kid just like your DH, who isn't interested in music-sport or drama? Will you get value for money?

[Kingsclerelass]

I'd ignore the funding, forget the dogma and what it was like 10 or 15 years ago, and go and look at the schools themselves.

I'm trying to manage private for my ds but only because our two catchment schools are "significantly underachieving" according to Ofsted this January.

[Snowcatrunsthehouse]

Why do we use oxbridge on MN and just not state Oxford or Cambridge?
Sorry if being dim here but been up all night and wondering the etiquette reason?