Anyone used a solicitor for a school appeal?

[Holymoly321]

Our son didn't get any of his three choices and had been allocated a brand new school miles away in a very run down high crime area. The school is just six portacabins at present and there won't be permanent buildings for over another year. We are appealing for his first choice which is massively oversubscribed and allocates places at random from throughout the county. We are thinking of hiring a solicitor to help us with the appeals process but wonder if having a solicitor represent us at the appeal will work against us with the panel. Has anyone ever used a solicitor for appeals? Was it worth the money? Do you wish you'd just done it yourself? Amy info would be most helpful!

[admission]

Oh, that is interesting that the head of preferred school has published in the guardian about peer relationships. They are going to have an interesting time explaining how they came to decision to not admit with that article available to the panel. But it does really depend how many pupils they already have in the year group as to how much this could influence the outcome of the appeal.
Everything that you can get together for the appeal is good news, but stuff with school does need to be writing. Regrettably panels have found by bad experiences that some parents will say anything to get their child in a school, so written evidence is needed to back up anything you say.

[PanelChair]

As ever, I agree with Admission.

Assemble as much documentary evidence as you can about your daughter's difficulties and your contacts with the school. Also, pinpoint any other features of the preferred school that make it a better fit for your daughter - subjects on the curriculum, extra-curricular provision, whatever it might be.

[Jax57]

Thanks Admission - the preferred school has been an Academy since 2011/2012. Should I look back at all the admission figures until they converted or just a random sample of years where they have exceeded their PAN - 240 per year (plus 300 for 6th form) so any year they have admitted over 1500 in total? I assume this includes SEN/LAC, Siblings and children of staff in those numbers too...

[PanelChair]

To be pedantic, they wouldn't admit 1500 in a year, as the PAN is 240 (which does include all the pupils admitted in whatever category). You're looking for any year group (outside the sixth form) in which there are more than 240, either in the current academic year or in the last few years (how many years you look at is really up to you, and depending on what data the school can provide). If there have been year groups with 240+ you can then ask what accidents there have been, for example, attributable to overcrowding. Usually, the school can't provide any concrete examples, which lends weight to your argument that they could admit another pupil without detriment.

[bunbunny]

Not an expert but do you know if they are still randomly allocating people off the waiting list or is it now done by distance or some other criteria?

Was the friend on the waiting list at the same time as you? Just wondering why they took her but not your dd - do you know if they have admitted any dc after the friend and if so how far away they live? Or how come there are so many people above your dd on the waiting list - do they come from a very narrow band living close to you and friend or have they joined the list later and if it's random then how come they jumped up but you didn't - can you get distance and criteria used for each of the late admitted children to see if there is any pattern to Imindicate it's not random allocation if that's what it's meant to be but there's a deliberate pattern that's working against you? Or indeed anything that could be used as a technicality on the waiting list management?

[PanelChair]

Waiting list offers are not random or "first come, first served". Waiting lists are held in the same order as the oversubscription criteria. As I read it, the friend who was offered a place lives 30m closer to the school, and so would have been higher on the waiting list.

[prh47bridge]

My turn to be pedantic!

if places in the normal admissions round are allocated by random selection the waiting list is also random and they must hold a fresh draw whenever a place becomes available. However, if places are allocated by some other method (e.g. distance which appears to be the case here) the waiting list must be ordered in the same way.

[JonSnowsWife]

Yes we did. But ours was very complicated and they were very helpful. I ended up being in hospital very poorly the week the appeal was heard so it was good that a solicitor was able to represent me in the end as I was too poorly to attend (obviously). Having a solicitor does not give you a cast iron guarantee that you will win your appeal. Our solicitor had several appeals the week they had ours and still lost some.

It isn't necessarily needed though, as PPs have said, it's geared up to help parents anyway.

[Bombardier25966]

an article printed by Guardian featuring Head of preferred school declaring how peer relationships encourage learning and progress and need to be monitored by teachers to safeguard mental health of girls in particular during transition and between 10-14.

I doubt anyone would disagree with the value of strong peer relationships in education, the fact that the head in question has written about it is irrelevant to your case.

As a panel member I would be looking for medical evidence of your daughter's difficulties, and not just a GP letter saying "Patient says ...". If your daughter has not seen an educational psychologist I'd be asking why, because this would be appropriate for a child experiencing emotional distress, and because I'd want to know that you have exhausted all other avenues. I'd also expect you to demonstrate why this is the only school that can meet your daughter's needs, you need to be specific in what the school offers your daughter, not to students in general.

Unless you can identify an administrative anomaly, or other reasons why your daughter must attend the school, I would not allow the appeal. That's not to say you should not try though, you might get a panel who are more influenced by emotions than fact.

[PanelChair]

Oh dear. Am I myopic as well as pedantic? Did I miss that initial allocations are random?

I tend to agree with Bombardier about the level of evidence required. It's great that the HT of the preferred school has spoken publicly about the importance of peer relationships, but the school or LEA will be arguing that all schools pay a lot of attention to peer relationships. The panel may also be sceptical if you say your daughter has needs and difficulties beyond the usual level that all schools can cater for yet haven't (if this is the case) sought external help.

[PanelChair]

Just read back and confirmed that the oversubscription criteria are based on distance. So too, then, is the waiting list.

[admission]

I am going to disagree with Bombardier25966 about the article. I have chaired panels for many years and the article will indicate that the school pays particular attention to this aspect for pupils in the school. As such they will have to explain to the panel whether they considered the situation of this appellant in relation to peer pressures before they took the decision to not admit and how this outweighs the appellant's situation. The school can admit over PAN of its own accord if it wishes to and cannot rely solely on the year group being at PAN to say they will not admit. Clearly if the school has a PAN of 240 and they only have 240 in the year group, this becomes an important issue. If however the year group already has 260, then it is easy to see that the needs of the school will outweigh the needs of the appellant.
In my opinion, there will be no medical evidence that you want Bombardier25966 because we are only half a term into her being in the school and the chances of seeing an ed psych in the first half term are nil. Those are realisms not facts.
The panel are going to have to weigh up the totality of the school's case against the appellants case and come to a decision. That decision may well be not to admit but it should not, in my opinion, be based on Bombardier25966's narrow set of lack of evidence.

[PanelChair]

I hear what you say, and I agree that the article is one piece of evidence that this school is probably more aware than others of the importance of peer relationships, but I think that still leaves the problem of demonstrating why any particular child needs this particular school (given that the LEA/school's position will almost certainly be that any school could provide pastoral support etc). In the many panels I've chaired, we have tended to accept what parents tell us - we don't expect them to have documentary evidence for everything and we reach a view on whether what they're saying is plausible and credible - but we do still have to weigh that against the arguments and evidence offered by the other side. I think Bombardier is right to warn that other panels may have different expectations about the amount of documentary evidence to be given in support.

[Jax57]

Hi everyone - dd is on waiting list due to criteria of proximity to preferred school. 6 ifvher Primary class friends have places including her 2 bfs one who was on the list at the same time as dd the other was allocated place on offers day. There were 20 places between them on list and bf was allocated place first week of September leaving her allocated school after less than 2 weeks. Medical evidence will take months to obtain- waiting list for CAMHS is currently 9 mths here in Croydon. I work in the classroom of school which operates managed moves between the allocated school dd is currently at. I work in SEN so on a daily basis refer students to SENCO for Ed Psych but again this would take months. The system is now that evidence needs to be gathered over a time period (normally 3 terms) to demonstrate needs and confirm school intervention before any really support given. My daughter is vulnerable through this transition and if left unsupported could develop from anxiety and depression into significant mental health issues and EBSR. Why should she have to deteriorate that much to provide ‘medical evidence’ for panel?

[prh47bridge]

Jax57 - The panel doesn't mind about the system. You don't have to wait 3 terms before taking medical evidence to the panel. That is, presumably, about the level of evidence required to get medical priority on the waiting list, which is not necessarily relevant for an appeal. You just have to produce enough evidence to convince them that it is in your daughter's best interests to go to this school and that this outweighs any problems the school will face due to having to admit another child.

[PanelChair]

Yes, exactly. There are several of us here who have been involved for a long time and we are trying to explain how it works and what the panel will be looking for. On the whole, it helps if parents (and schools for that matter) have relevant documentary evidence to back up what they're saying. If there isn't much or any documentation, then parents need to be prepared for questions about that, to explain (for example) how long the waiting list for CAMHS can be.

[JonSnowsWife]

I doubt anyone would disagree with the value of strong peer relationships in education, the fact that the head in question has written about it is irrelevant to your case.

I agree. DDs was a complicated severe bullying case with a shedload of evidence from professionals and it was still "no" at the first hurdle. The school we wanted for DD, her brother was already in, and it was/is in a very 'naice' area. Which I'm presuming Bromley is too.

Sorry if this sounds rude it doesn't mean too but I think you may need more help, evidence with regards to your daughters needs than just the friendship groups. Yes they help but then kids are swapped and changed around all the time. DD is dyslexic, she struggled with friendships massively once she'd changed schools (she'd built up a wall after what she's been through and I dont blame her - I think she'd just lost sight of what is a friend and one who isn't).

That being said. Is the school you want her in one form entry or more? Because she won't be guaranteed she'll be in with the same friends she mentioned. The school we moved DD too had her best friend in her class who she'd known from nursery, she has gone up to the same senior school with all her class this year as the primary was a feeder school and not one person from her original friendship group is in her tutor group or any of her classes. She has surprisingly (to me) made new friends pretty easily though who seem very supportive of their group.

[Jax57]

Thank you to everyone who have responded - all advice is gratefully received. Just wondered if I could suggest as part of my argument that accepting dd would not be detrimental to current students by being an addition to the year group if the school site is shared by sixth form and they are not full to capacity (ie 300 places but only 260 accepted in the same year? Though this might satisfy square footage/safety in corridors on stairs etc..also are maps a good idea to demonstrate catchment area of current placement over catchment area of preferred placement pinpointing peers and their proximity to dd?

[PanelChair]

I'm not sure that "spare" capacity in the sixth form will help you much but you can certainly explore whether any other year groups are under capacity or (over capacity without any obvious problems). Others might disagree, but I'd say no to the maps. You can mention that she has friends at the school but I suspect most panels won't expect you to turn up with a map (and might roll their eyes if you do - you want to keep the panel on side).

[Jax57]

Thank you PanelChair - have a couple of emails from Head of Pastoral at current placement but these are quite informal as I know them quite well...I worked with them during placement for PGCE and along side them mentoring Yr 10/11s with GCSE coursework under Aim Higher initiative. How would my intimate knowledge of current placement affect dds case? Would it go against dd because of my job and educational background? How much should I mention or should I just make a very short statement in the paperwork regarding family background etc?

[PanelChair]

I mean this kindly, but I think you have failed to understand what the appeal will be about.

The appeal is about presenting your case (with as much supporting evidence as you can muster) for your child to be admitted to the school. Assuming that the school's position will be that it is full and cannot admit another child without "prejudice" (i.e. detriment) to the children already there, it's your opportunity to argue that the detriment to your child in not being admitted outweighs that detriment and so she should have a place. It's about your child, not you. Your job and educational background will not be held against your child. Your knowledge of the school she's currently at won't be held against her either (it might help you explain why the current school is not meeting her needs, but you can do that as a parent and, again, the focus should be on the benefits of attending the preferred school, not the deficiencies of the current school).

If your concern is that the panel will think that, since you're a teacher, your child can cope in a school that doesn't meet her needs, I'm sure it won't: it still has to weigh up the relative prejudice, but it won't discount what you say because you work in education. Nor do I see why you need to say very much about family background; you need to home in on the key points, which are that your daughter has particular needs, the current school isn't meeting them and (crucially) the preferred school will.

[Jax57]

Thank you PanelChair - one can get carried away with all the good advice posted on various threads here plus the negative vibes because most appeals fail - I wonder if I should just make an 'in-year admission' in the last week of term before this waiting list is disbanded and hope to get chosen due to continued interest in the school in the New Year. Can't afford to move 500 yards into borough and DDs Bff looks about 50 yards away as the crow flies and she got in back in September...hopefully the 18 in front of us at the moment will mostly be happy where they currently are or changed their minds...

[CauliflowerSqueeze]

A solicitor turned up at an appeals panel where I was representing the school a couple of years ago.

As prhbridge suggested could happen, he made a massive fool of himself and really irritated the independent appeal panel as he approached the whole thing like he was at the Old Bailey.

[admission]

Jax,
Am slightly confused by your last post. Have you actually asked for a place at the school yet or not. From you last post it would seem not.

It is probable that there would be a considerable number who are on the waiting list who will now be settled in a school, so will not want a place if it came up. However expecting 18 to say no, is probably stretching it a lot to assume this will happen. It is also a fact that other families are bound to be moving into the area, who will definitely be looking to get into your preferred school and will go to appeal.

I think you need to make a decision whether you are going to apply for a place. When the application is rejected you can appeal and place before an admission appeal panel you best shot at getting into the school. Roughly 30% of appeals at secondary level nationally succeed but it is impossible to know what the % is at your local level.

Whatever you decide to do, you need also to be addressing the issues that your daughter has, because no matter the evidence you have there is still a reasonable chance that you will not succeed at appeal.

[Jax57]

Admission, I have sent a letter to the Independent Clerk to the Appeal Panel at the beginning of last week. Clerk responded with form for Appeal and notes to be submitted by Noon Nov 15. Sent letter requesting appeal after told by LA that I could appeal now, and submit and in year application in last week of term to secure process for the beginning of Jan 2018 to remain as a continued interest.
So have letter from music teacher supporting her for entrance to preferred school - just waiting on previous HT from Primary and SENCO providing statement of support too. Have paperwork from SENCO demonstrating difficulties with working memory/single word vocabulary. Her current timetable is one week and she really enjoys Math but has double Math on a Friday afternoon which is always fraught with disruption so means she is missing out on a substantial amount of curriculum on a regular basis. Preferred school operates a 2 week timetable so any disruption would be minimal. Have emails from current school talking of problems so early in transition and how psychologically this has affected her. All compounded by social aspects of being only child from primary school to attend (no previous child from Primary school has attended there before either).
This is due to PS being single form entry Church school - her year was a bulge year and none have followed since. The PS has just become a two form entry this year. I can be more specific about the timetabling of subjects offered by preferred school especially after school clubs etc. So far have found total numbers for on role which far exceed DFE capacity by approx 50. Have asked Appeals Clerk for details on PAN numbers , square footage/safeguarding in corridors etc and whether sixth form share facilities and if they are currently oversubscribed.
DD wants to go to school. I will continue to wait for place even if it becomes available in year 8 or 9. They also offer an ethos of 'growth mindset' rather than 'fixed mindset' which I know my dd used to demonstrate at PS but now is retreating more and more...all this in addition to applying for POA for ds with EHCP and caring for elderly parents and supporting another ds who is gifted and talented!