Is it normal to lose marks in a maths exam if you got a question right bu didn't show workings?

[GreenGinger2]

Dd got 3 questions right(fractions) but only half the marks in each because she didn't show her workings. Written on paper that this was the case.

Seems harsh.

Dd has forbidden me from querying it with teacher (fierce) so won't be but would just like to know out of interest if this is the norm and the reason.

She did well but those 3 marks would have raised her percentage.

[noblegiraffe]

The mark schemes for the sample papers aren't very good. The mark schemes for exams which students have actually sat are usually much better and give more alternative methods.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

I think the problem with this one was that it's not a very good question.

The correct answer involved listing 2 sequences of numbers and identifying the 3 that appeared in both.

I sort of reasoned my way to finding the three numbers, but figured that as long as I explained my thinking it should be worth the marks.

[noblegiraffe]

The problem would be if the student started a weird method but bodged it so didn't get the correct answer. Starting a recognised method and bodging it would get some process/method marks, but a weird method would be more likely to get nothing as the marker would be less likely to spot what the student was doing.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

That makes sense.

Just curious as I was browsing through one of the new foundation papers and used a totally different method for solving a question (a 'show your working' one) than either of the two credited in the mark scheme. I think it might come under 'weird roundabout but mathematically sound' but does lead to the correct answer.

[noblegiraffe]

Rafa there are no prescribed methods for GCSE as such, any valid method usually counts. If it is not included on the mark scheme but appears to be correct (say a pupil correctly uses differentiation on a gradient of a straight line question even though differentiation is not part of the GCSE syllabus so is unexpected, or uses a weird roundabout but mathematically sound approach to solve a problem), then the marker can raise it with their leader to confirm that the student deserves the marks.

The only real exception is where the question specifies the approach required e.g. 'Using an algebraic method' or 'Do not use trial and improvement'. Then they would not get the marks if they used a numeric/T&I approach even if they got the right answer.

Usually a correct answer with no working is given full marks, (benefit of doubt) unless the question says 'You must show your working'.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

By some miracle she passed it very well but I suspect there wasn't many workings included.

If she can do the maths and is only struggling with the organising and writing she will have done well. The KS2 mark schemes always give full marks for a correct answer regardless of whether the correct working or any working is shown.

noble do the mark schemes for the new GCSEs allow any deviation from the method set out or will you only get the marks if you use a method that is prescribed?

[BubbleWrapQueen]

Most of the SATs papers I have seen from last year were one mark or two mark questions, which needed very little working out

The new GCSE syllabus relies a lot on proof and reasoning. The questions are wordy and hard to decipher. It takes working out, simply so you can see what you have done so far. You can't just select an answer, you need to prove why someone is wrong, why a shape is bigger than another, why the dice is biased. I encourage my students to write down Everything - to be honest very few need the whole 90 minutes for 80 marks so have time for this.

[TeenAndTween]

... I had the same issue with KS2 test papers and KS2 workbooks too.

[GreenGinger2]

weren't many

[TeenAndTween]

The issue I have with my DD2's y7 maths (her teacher is great, DD2 is lower set), is that the printed worksheets they are given have just enough blank space on them to make them think they can squeeze the workings out onto the sheet.

DD2 definitely can't, and I am forcing her to hand in a separate sheet of squared paper showing her workings laid out to my (high) standards (main flow of argument going down LHS, any needed but on the side calculations on RHS). I suspect she thinks I am being OTT but I know it will help her in the long run!

[GreenGinger2]

Trifle she really doesn't know this well.

Thanks Noble.

Problem we have is her Sen. By the time she has organised her thoughts, negotiated her way round any charts or diagrams(challenging for her), managed to produce legible handwriting,ignored pains in her wrists and done the calculation recording the working can get lost in the process.

My Maths doesn't help as it's online. Not sure if I can print off it.

Also this year's year 7 was the first year doing the Sats which was a cake and arse party last year. They had to learn a 7 year curriculum in a year and learn the new style papers fast. I've sat with Sen kids doing one of said papers and it's super speedy,you barely have a minute a question on one. Lord alone knows how you put in masses of working on top. It's literally can you do it,great,if not move on. By some miracle she passed it very well but I suspect there wasn't many workings included.

I also suspect that actually as a year group they haven't been taught to do masses of working recording as there were far bigger issues to focus on such as getting the whole curriculum covered in time. If they were nobody can really blame them for perhaps not being that great at it. Last year was a hideous year for this year 7,there wasn't any time to polish up exam skills.

[noblegiraffe]

I'm having this battle with my Y7s too at the moment. At primary they are told to show their working and because they don't use calculators, this means doing written methods for long calculations, so they think showing their working means long calculations.

Then they get to secondary school and they're told to show their working but it's because maths is about presenting a solution to a question, which is different to presenting an answer. Even if they can do it in their head, or if they've done it on a calculator, they have to write down what they did, to show that not only have they got the correct answer, but to argue that it is the correct answer.

We then have arguments about 'I did it in my head and didn't need to write anything down', or 'I did it on a scrap of paper that I've left at home' or 'it's in the back of my book'. Penalising them for not showing working with their answer is part of winning this argument, to show that it won't be accepted at secondary.

[Trifleorbust]

Totally standard practise - she will know this as well.

[F1GI]

Teacher trying to teach your dd a lesson I think. Working is very important to protect you from losing all marks in the event of a minor slip.

[nauticant]

This is what happens when you miss out the working:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat's_Last_Theorem

[Bluebellevergreen]

Absolutely. This was the norm when I was in school too!
And DD must know it.
If you show the workings and yoo make a mistake at the end then at least you are showing what you know.
Just writing the right answer is never seen as a good answer.
This continued with me until I finished my masters (I studied maths/ physics...)

It is the way it is and she will know for next time. She probably knows already so she doesnt want you to talk to teacher

[pishedoff]

Yes!

DS1 struggled with this as he's always preferred to work questions out in his head rather than write them down, something that wasn't questioned at primary school, so it was abit of a shock when he got to secondary!

[akkakk]

you are not losing a mark for not showing workings, you are simply getting the marks allocated to the correct answer and not getting the marks allocated tot he workings...

as others have said - process is a big part of maths...

however it can be unfair - there was a paper by Grey & Tall (Warwick Uni) back in the 90s on the maths learning of children - looking at how some use procedure, some use concept, and others have a higher way of understanding maths which they called procept - a sort of rolled up instinctive understanding - they are often the maths genius bods, but can find it difficult, esp. at lower ages to show working -they just know the answer...

but ultimately school exams are not about knowledge and ability - they are about moving through the school system

[DragonitesRule]

My DD suffered with this when she first started high school-I just told her to look at the marks allocated to the question-if it was 3 marks for one question then they are clearly looking for more than just the answer. If it's one mark, clearly the answer will do. Would that help your DD?

[bruffin]

ds has dyslexia and would copy the wrong number from previous page or use wrong setting on calculator but thankfuĺly would get good marks because his workings were correct

[sashh]

Not only is it normal but if there are two or three ways to do something and the question asks for one method then you don't get the marks if you use a different method.

eg in computer science there are a couple of ways to do binary subtraction (because computers don't actually subtract, divide or multiply) one way that doesn't attract marks is to convert the numbers in to decimal, do the subtraction and convert the answer back to binary.

It seems harsh but the other methods are the way computers work so you need to understand that to do further study.

Even more complicated if you don't understand computer working is that you can add two numbers in decimal and convert it back to binary but the answer is wrong because of an 'overflow error' ie the computer wouldn't be able to get the correct answer due to the memory available for calculations.

[TheCakes]

Yes. You get marks for the process and marks for the result. DD has not completed the question fully, so has not got full marks. Totally fair.

[eitak22]

Quite often on a mark scheme if a question is worth 4 marks, 2 will be for correct answer and 2 will be available for showing your workings for example. It seems like this is what has happened in your DDs case. If she wants the full marks from the questions then she needs to show her workings, best to start doing it in year 7 than having to start when it comes to GCSEs.

[ImperialBlether]

She needs to look at how it's marked. If she's told to show workings, then obviously that's got to happen (this might be on the front page of an exam paper or written next to the question.) Then if a question is for 2 marks, she will have to do at least 2 things to warrant those marks. You can't get 2 marks for just an answer - only one mark will be allocated for that.