A specialist maths school in every city

[noblegiraffe]

Theresa May is set to announce plans for a specialist maths school in every city, along the lines of the KCL school which is a highly selective maths-based sixth form.

//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/21/maths-school-every-city-theresa-may-announces-new-technical/

While on paper this sounds good, I wonder about the effect on local schools who are already struggling to recruit qualified maths teachers.

[TalkinPeace]

So Cities get specialist schools
but towns and villages get left with the dregs
nice one

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

Exactly, rather destroys their promise to sort out the seaside town schools.

[noblegiraffe]

Here is a blog post which comes with a warning. It was written by the advisor that came up with this idea, and about how they tried to push it through earlier but were blocked by various people, the arguments behind it, and who managed to get the KCL sixth form open despite opposition.

The warning is that the advisor was Dominic Cummings, the Campaign Director of Vote Leave and the guy who decided that they shouldn't have a leave plan because it would lose them the referendum. I know he has had people infiltrate MN to try to influence public opinion before, so Dominic, if you're reading this: You're despicable.

dominiccummings.wordpress.com/2017/01/23/specialists-maths-schools-some-facts/

The blog post doesn't mention the shortage of maths teachers.

[TalkinPeace]

Dominic was Chloe74 - we called him on it :-)

[rollonthesummer]

Our very high achieving boys' grammar has been advertising for the last year for maths teachers. In July, the head emailed all parents in desperation, asking them to please contact him if they or anyone they knew, could teach the lessons.

Where are these maths teachers going to come from?!

[noblegiraffe]

Talkin that was one, there was at least another propaganda minion (probably a team of them) around the Brexit threads too.

[noblegiraffe]

A bit more info about the Kolmogorov School mentioned in the blog:

"From its humble beginnings, the Kolmogorov School now instructs about 200 pupils in grades ten and eleven each year from Russia, Byelorussia, Tatarija, Baschkirija, Osetija/ North Osetija, Checheno- lngushetija and Kabordino-Balkarija. Students are regional winners of olympiades in subjects such as mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology. After winning an olympiad, students are invited to take written examinations consisting of mathematics and physics problems. Students also participate in an oral examination conducted in their home villages by faculty in mathematics and physics from the Kolmogorov School. After the oral examinations, the best students are invited to spend one or two years at the residential school, which commences with a mandatory one-month summer school for tenth graders."

journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/026142949300900209

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

They clearly don't understand the issue in Maths. We need lots of people to be good at maths. We need people like me (English teacher) to continue our love of maths from primary and share that love and destroy this it's ok/cool to be bad at Maths nonsense.
The grammar school I teach in is bloody excellent at Maths. Our Maths department is fab. However, the Maths department at my own Girls grammar was shockingly awful. I was told off for working too fast (in the lower of two sets) at the start of year 10 and proceeded to do nothing for the next two years. OFSTED reported that they 'relied on the innate ability of their students'. They've all retired now and it's a much better department now. However, my point is that pulling out the elite to just do Maths at Sixth Form will do precisely nothing to help the current STEM situation. We need inspiring Maths at KS1 and 2 and the lower levels of secondary.

[Blu]

DoctorDonna: I agree. The odd Sheldon-type maths genius is all Well and good, and we need their sheer talent to be supported and unleashed. But we also need a numerate population across all disciplines.

I was truly hopeless at maths at school, until finally in the year before I took the exam we had a teacher who understood the non-mathematicians amongst us, and patiently gave us confidence and coached us to a pass.

Maths is a useful framework for thinking. I am an arts grad and work in the creative industries. I rediscovered an actual enjoyment of maths at University, and it underpins the strategic thinking that is as important in my life as my creative output. Moving things around to different effect and choosing the best result. Looking at long term accumulative impact, problem solving, being able to do simple mental arithmetic gives you an 'instinct' as to when the management accounts in front of you don't quite look right...,

A KCMS in every city (or village) that supports future maths professors and particle physicists (and yay to that!) won't help with the future shopkeepers, vets, distribution managers, town planners, plumbing businesses, etc that keep us going.

[Needmoresleep]

Universities complain about a shortage of good home-grown maths applicants, and entry requirements, aside from a few big names, can be surprisingly low. I can see Universities leaping at the chance to support/mentor/encourage a selected group of strong young local mathematicians. And teaching wise, whilst good teachers can support the full range, others might be great teaching Further Maths A level and STEP, but hopeless at controlling a lower Yr 8 set on a Friday afternoon. From observation, very selective independent schools are willing to recruit straight from Universities, because for them the maths skills are often more important.

The shortage of maths teachers may be a different problem. Encouraging more young people to develop their maths skills can surely only be a good thing in the longer term.

I was a good mathematician, but in an all-girls school where it was the done thing not to be good at maths. We had hopeless teaching, and only covered enough of the O level syllabus to be able to answer a minimum five questions. I hated feeling odd for finding maths obvious, and with the gaps in my knowledge I struggled with the step up to A level. I used to wish I was at a boys grammar where I would not have been so alone. My daughter in contrast went to co-ed schools, with strong maths teaching, and thinks maths is cool. But this is the London private sector. I am glad talented state school pupils will have access to the same opportunities.

I often see KCL maths students in the street. Ethnically diverse, with a good proportion of girls. I understand that within a couple of years they have started getting very good results, and a couple of Cambridge places last year. This is despite the competition of the nearby Harris Westminster sixth form which offers good maths, again Cambridge offers, but a range of other subjects. Sixth formers can travel that bit further so it is not a bad idea to offer provision that will allow the brightest to aspire to top courses and top Universities.

[alittlebitprivateforthis]

I've been pondering what, if anything to say on the thread as I have a dc at KCL, but its always difficult to talk about these things without accidentally coming across as an arse.

For my dc KCL has been the right school. Being amongst many other gifted mathematicians means they are thriving. They are much happier than they were at their old school because they now have peers of a similar ability. It's not just from an academic point of view that they are thriving, but they feel the pressure has been taken off them now. They can see that other people who they consider to be brilliant at maths make mistakes and so, they too can make mistakes at its ok. I think you can't underestimate the value of being with other people of a similar ability.

Exeters model might be better in that they can do other a levels at the college next door. That may have done them in a bit on the league table side, but league tables don't tell a whole story.

The selection of a levels is very limited at KCL. It is really only suitable for those who want to study maths or engineering and not much else. My dc loves languages and would have done a language a level had one been on offer.

They do offer a good range of extracurricular activities (including a chance to do languages of their own choice for a term or two), They take them out on non maths related trips, Sport is compulsory one afternoon a week. Their epqs can be on any subject they like, they don't have to be maths based.

I think I'm leaning towards the idea that there should just be a few kcls - for the very gifted mathematicians. Those who actually really only want to do maths and associated maths subjects. And they should have a boarding school option as Exeter does, so that its not just for those who are fortunate enough to live within commuting distance (albeit very long commutes for some students) of the school.

I don't think they are actually a model that would work if there were too many of the KCL type school. You don't want lots and lots of very good mathematicians being siphoned off into such a focused curriculum - they are many areas of work that require excellent mathematicians, that require other subjects. But for the sort of student that my dc is, the school is almost perfect.

These schools won't in themselves cure the STEM crisis, but perhaps they will help spread good practise in teaching maths. KCL does do various outreach programs including a course for teachers who want to teach further maths. They also work with year 11s from other schools to extend them.

We are in a vicious circle at the moment where we don't have enough excellent maths teachers actually teaching, to inspire more children to love maths, so that they become maths teachers.

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

Maths is the most popular A Level in my school followed by Chemistry. I think we need to be fostering the attitude you suggest in all schools - particularly the part about it being OK to make a mistake sometimes and that not making you 'bad at Maths'. I think there's a place for things like Maths specialist sixth forms but you don't start with that. The starting point HAS to be improving maths and science provision in primary to ensure that we actually are getting the most able mathematicians. There seems to be, anecdotally speaking, an issue with numeracy (and literacy) is some primary schools. If teaching was more respected as a profession this might help. Primaries need good mathematicians. A lot of our outreach work is based on supporting G and T provision in primary maths. I'm assuming KCL and Exeter do similar?

[alittlebitprivateforthis]

KCL do outreach to gcse candidates, but not any younger. I don't think they would have the skill set to work with primary children.

I do agree with you, primary maths teaching has not produced cohorts of children who come out confident in basic maths skills. I think that may be changing a little now. Then secondary schools try to teach more advanced maths on top of very shaky skills and at some point for very many children it all comes tumbling down.

We would, I think, be very wise to invest in specialist maths teachers at primary school. To strip out much of the content of what they learn at that age, but to make sure that what they do know, they know very, very well.

Going back to secondary, schools can try to foster the idea that making mistakes is fine, but it is very difficult for the dc who is such an outlier to see that that idea is actually true. To be at a school where you can bounce problems off each other and create and discuss your own problems feels like a huge privilege for my dc. I feel as though they will be going into university a much more robust person who will better be able to cope with the idea of not being the best when they get there.

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

As a teacher at a grammar school I agree with the environment helping (otherwise I wouldn't teach where you do). If they're having success in teaching able perfectionists that it's ok to get things wrong I would be very interested to know how they're going about it.
I know it's completely off topic but teaching 'failure' can be really important. The first test I failed was my driving test. I was 35. And devasted. My DH thought it was hilarious. His attitude is much healthier. I'm hoping we can raise DS with a bit of balance.

[user7214743615]

Universities complain about a shortage of good home-grown maths applicants, and entry requirements, aside from a few big names, can be surprisingly low. I can see Universities leaping at the chance to support/mentor/encourage a selected group of strong young local mathematicians.

Can you provide evidence for both statements?

I don't agree with either. Yes, we should produce more STEM graduates but the number of maths undergraduates is going up year on year. The relative shortage of strong candidates has been caused almost entirely by the change in the fees regime: the top departments outside Oxbridge have expanded, which has had knock on effects on the departments further down. University management likes taking on more maths students because they are cheap to teach. One maths department at which I am an external examiner has increased student numbers by 60% since 2012.

And quite frankly university departments are overloaded enough already. I can't see any maths department jumping for joy at having to do (even more) mentoring/support to school students than we already do. My own department would riot at the idea of having to spend (more) time in schools.

[user7214743615]

We are in a vicious circle at the moment where we don't have enough excellent maths teachers actually teaching, to inspire more children to love maths, so that they become maths teachers.

But this is not the whole problem. Teaching salaries, and public sector salaries as a whole, are far below the salaries offered in finance and service sectors in London. Virtually none of my students become maths teachers. This is not because they don't love maths. This is not because they don't love teaching. It's mostly because they can get a much higher salary elsewhere.

[bojorojo]

I think Maths graduates get a £25,000 bonus to train as a teacher now, don't they? Generally,though, the salaries are too low in the SE to compete with City jobs. Having sai that, promotion in teaching can be very rapid for the right person. There is a shortge of top leadership in schools too.

These would have to be boarding schools, wouldn't they? Not eveyone is anywhere near a city!

Generally, I am with DoctorDonna. It should not be about just teaching the elite, it should be about teaching the many. Also, good mathematicians at school are not necessarily going into Engineering either. There are real shortages here.

[Blu]

Needmoresleep- there are several S London comps that have excellent maths departments at sixth form, sending kids to Cambridge on unconditional offers to do maths, for example, so I think that the 70-ish intake for KCL has an overall impact on provision elsewhere.

I would have grasped maths far more easily had I been taught the same methods as my DC learned in primary school.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Very interesting insider view of KCL, and I think your analysis is good too, alittlebit.

My DD is at a school which sounds similar to yours, DrDonna - girls' GS in which maths followed by chemistry and biology are the most popular A levels. They have excellent teachers - perhaps helped by being far from the SE in the sort of area people will choose for lifestyle reasons. Whatever the issues around GS in general, I think theres a good case for this type of sixth form - selective, though with additional yr12 intake so its nothing like superselective, a sensible range of subjects on offer. While DD has done exactly what KCL offers (double maths, physics; AS computing and an EPQ) I don't think there would have been any advantage for her in that setup versus what she has.

[Needmoresleep]

Blu, if a child is already in a school with an excellent maths department, would they choose to leave for somewhere like KCL? Alittlebit describes it well. A safe haven for mathmos but not offering a lot more. However in reality there are plenty of schools in south London (and arguably KCL is central London anyway) which don't have excellent maths departments, and without a critical mass of talented mathematicians. Should pupils there be denied opportunities to develop a specific talent simply because others are alright?

In terms of primary school teaching I remember a neighbour, a newly qualified primary school teacher, coming round whilst my son was dong his Prep School homework. The neighbour was aghast when he spotted what DS was studying. DS, then aged 8, should not have being doing that type of work until at least Yr 6 if not until he reached secondary. DS was not having any problems doing his homework, and would have been bored had he had to assume the pace dictated at the school my neighbour worked in. The neighbour seemed to think that the Prep school was wrong for pushing kids too hard. I don't think so, but also wondered whether problems with primary school maths involved issues other than resources.

[Bobochic]

user3615 is right about the huge discrepancy in salary for a maths graduate between teaching and finance. This issue is not confined to the U.K. - here in France maths teachers are being recruited from Spain, given a six-week crash course in French, and being sent into middle school classrooms. My DD has experienced first hand the "quality" of maths supply teachers. Fortunately she has now moved school to somewhere where the maths teachers are middle aged bourgeoise mother career changers and are carefully looked after by the Head (also a maths teacher). But, while I am delighted to have secured good maths teaching for my own DD, I am more than aware that maths teaching cannot be confined to highly qualified second earners looking for a comfortable work/life balance.

[horizonsnew]

KCL doesn't just select on apritude and enthusiasm. It also prioritises students who don't already have access to an outstanding maths department. And there's a random allocation element too.

I don't buy the "too few maths teachers" argument. Schools like KCL can be a breeding ground (not literally) for the next generation of maths teachers. Better maths provision creates more maths teaches, which creates even better maths provision.

Too many students are being taught maths by non-specialists at present.

[Bobochic]

It's fine to create specialist maths sixth forms but they need to be careful not to offer so narrow a curriculum that DC's general education is insufficient. DC who are very good at maths are usually interested and talented at many other things.

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

Needmoresleep - my own primary maths teaching was patchy. I had one excellent teacher. The rest not so much. We used to move between year groups for Maths and Spelling and Dictation. I ended up two classes up for both. I'm not sure 'pushing' is the issue. Maybe more an insecurity in subject knowledge. If I don't know the answer to something in class I'm honest about it and promise to find out the answer (and do). I have known teachers who can't cope with that and have instead comfortably given wrong answers (not just maths, I've known this to happen with SPaG as well). The subject knowledge expected in the primary teaching course isn't fit for purpose. It does trainee teachers a disservice. Perhaps a longer training course is needed for primary. There is so much they are expected to know and be able to teach I'm not sure how that can be covered in current training models.

[Bobochic]

*The subject knowledge expected in the primary training course isn't fit for purpose."

Is that because it is assumed that people who have themselves completed secondary education ought to have mastered the basics?