How difficult are the London 'Super Grammars' to get into?

[likestoplan]

We all read the stories of their being 12 applicants per place, endless and expensive tutoring needed to get in, and kids getting places from private schools but I'm wondering...

How hard is it to get into one of the London 'Super Grammars'?

Tiffing schools, Latymer, Newstead, Henrietta Barnet; theses are all incredible schools, but it just seems that to get kids in it requires intense training with practise papers and exam technique, and then they have to peak at exactly the right time.

I'd love to hear stories from people who have tried to get DC in, both success and failure stories, and whether the whole experience was stressful on both parent and child or whether you could treat it more like a game and keep things calm.

Many thanks for any info.

[user12785]

Which paper are you writing for, OP?

[amidawish]

i agree that the likes of Tiffin are not full of prep school kids - maybe a few, prep school parents tend to want the selective academic independents.

i wonder if the change in Tiffin exam away from VR/NVR to maths & english will favour the prep school kids? VR/NVR is fairly straightforward to prep for if you allow plenty of time.

[Needmoresleep]

PettsWood, I posted on another thread that I overheard a conversation on a bus last week about 11+ and tutoring schedules.

They were trying Kent, Bournemouth and the Greycoats language test, which as a geographical spread seemed to cover half the country. The latter was frustrating, as the local catchment for Greycoats is minute, yet local kids are squeezed off the bus in the morning as they commute to further away schools by hoards of kids coming up from Kent who are either "cleverer" or more holy. Needless to say the tutoring schedule was intense, an the daughter appeared only to be in Year 5.

Kent 11+ I suspect is easier than Tiffin as there are more places for the qualifying population. The competition becomes intense when lots and lots of kids have a go, and will take up the place if offered as the school is considered to provide the best free education that is available locally.

[Needmoresleep]

Amida, my understanding is that very few preps consider it worth prepping for Tiffin. The odds are low and prep would eat into valuable educaiton time. Independent selectives were looking for a wider range of academic and other skills.

Years ago DD was friendly with a very bright girl at Bute, perhaps the most academic of the West London Preps. She tried Tiffin though was told not to bother by the Head as if was very rare for any girl from there to get a place. Sure enough she got everywhere else including SPGS, along with almost 50% of her year group, but not Tiffin.

My guess is that lots of prep school parents would leap at a Tiffin place. We would have done. Paying fees is a struggle for all but the very rich. However it would have meant a lot of childhood hours spent of fairly pointless VR/NRV practice when children could be doing more productive things like reading, playing sport, or just being children.

[amidawish]

i do know quite a few dcs who got Tiffin but chose Hampton/LEH/KGS over it.

it's not just about getting a string of A*s

the change to maths/english test will encourage more prep school kids to apply i'm sure. i didn't put dd in for Tiffin as i frankly couldn't be bothered getting her up to scratch on NVR.

[cakeisalaystheanswer]

DS went to one of the very academic13+ preps near Tiffin, only 2 boys sat for Tiffin and both for financial reasons. None of the rest of the parents even went to look at Tiffin it wasn't an option any of us were interested in. I am always reading about how parents struggle for school fees but in my experience at prep school age that is only true for a minority. For most families like my own it isn't a consideration.

DS had a very bright year group that gained a good number of scholarships for all the top London schools. Many of the parents were uber academic and looking for Oxbridge preferably their old colleges. Looking at the top London boys schools Westminster send about 90 to Oxbridge, St Pauls about 70, Kings College about 60, Tiffin usually around 20.

[cakeisalaystheanswer]

And a few years ago I know of 5 boys all from the same state primary who turned down Tiffin for Hampton. A couple had scholarships but the parents decided that they would have a better all round experience at Hampton and it was worth paying for.

[Chickydoo]

My DS got a place at Tiffin. However after much deliberation we declined the place and decided on a different school.
Tiffin is great for academic study, however there's not a lot else on offer. Friends with 2 boys at the school informed us of that, and said their boys feel they have missed out a bit.
Oh and my DS was tutored.

[Needmoresleep]

Cake " I am always reading about how parents struggle for school fees but in my experience at prep school age that is only true for a minority."

Surely this depends partly on where you live. Our local state primaries were quite troubled and so it was not unusual for people to stretch themselves to the limit to go private. (As an alternative to renting in a better catchment, using a relatives address or discovering religion.) We asked this questions when first meeting the Prep Head and he assured us there were families who then barely had the money to pay the bus fare. Probably an exageration, but the idea that all people who pay fees are rich seems naive. This is even more true at secondary, where we suddenly felt relatively well off.

That said it may be chaging a bit. In the past in our area you could afford the house but not fees on, say, two public sector salaries, but now you can't afford either!

[Greenleave]

I am still weighting, how hard, is it worth it? Is that the way I'd like to raise my kids?
People alson dont like being completely open and honest about how they prepare their children which make "young" parents like us who has their first child at the age of near 11+ very confused? I personally think its hard, how hard I dont know. I only know that my friend who has a daughter goes to one of these schools in North London few years ago has sent her second child to tutor from yr4 and the child sat for 10+ in yr5 and has been studying daily since yr4. That really scares me as the child is listed as gifted in his outstanding primary school. She might have over prepared the child(he is taking his 11+ exam this Sept) or she actually knows that it IS that hard.
My child isnt gifted, no way I can ask her to study(even 30mins) daily now, I dont(cant) even tell her what is 11+ as she will have to think and prepare for it for TWO years. I am still sitting on fire and testing if I am doing a right thing or actually I am ruining her future by not coaching her now...very tense

[cakeisalaystheanswer]

I can only say how it was for me at DS's school. Our area is full of outstanding primaries but many people at the 13+ preps wouldn't even know the name of their local primary because they never looked. There are a couple of 11+ private primaries/preps so probably anyone looking for state for seniors might go there.

SW London is a popular commuter belt for one of the major financial centres of the world so incomes are very high. It is only 7% who attend private schools so think of all the Goldman Sachs partners, partners in law firms, accountancy firms etc. Investment bankers, fund managers, analysts, company directors, very senior civil servants etc., there are a lot of people earning a lot of money which is why house prices are so ridiculous. I am not saying its right, I'm just saying thats how it is.

[Needmoresleep]

A bit of an arcane argument but having stretched hard to find the money for fees and observed people who were stretching far harder I think you are talking about quite a small chunk of SW London. In other areas, often where housing is cheaper, state schools are poor and people stretch to pay fees. I don't know where the 7% comes from either. The percentage using private schools in most London boroughs is much higher.

Life is clearly different for Goldman Sachs bankers. I suspect they have few chances to meet the less well off so perhaps don't realise they exist.

[pepperpot99]

OP you absolutely do NOT have to spend loads. I DIYd with my own child who is now a pupil at one of the super selectives you mention. No tutors, no mocks, ( biggest swindle of sleep if you ask me) just regular, manageable practice at home with mummy. Please don't consult the 11 plus forum. They are obsessed and manic.!!!! My child went to a bog standard state primary school BTW.

[pepperpot99]

"Of all" grrrr!!

[mrsfluffytail]

Ex newsteadian here. (Left 10+ years ago). I did lots of practice papers. No tutoring or intensive after school work. My mum was of the opinion that what would be would be.

It was very obvious who had been tutored to pass the entrance exams and who was naturally able.

[mrsfluffytail]

Just want to add, I don't think you would do your children any favours if you intensively tutor them. Once into the school, the tutoring would have to continue to keep up the high standard.

I think it's more relaxed now but when I was there, we were certainly under a lot of pressure to achieve - 12 As/A star at GCSE was the norm. At the achievements event, only girls with 12 A stars got an award. Gives you a very warped view of what is an achievement.

[mary21]

Ds2 year good state primary. 12 out of 60 sat Tiffinboys/girls. 1 got in 1 wait listed.
Ds1,s year 4 got in.
Every year between 1 and 4 get in. About 5 to8 go to Hampton/Leh/kgs most years

[SAHDthatsall]

Please don't consult the 11 plus forum. They are obsessed and manic.!!!!

That's harsh.

Well, it's harsh on normal people that are obsessed and manic.

The elevenplus forum takes that to new heights! I think people on there sit around at their computers all day just hoping for a new post, a new poster! And then they react - even to fake ones (of which there are many of late) Slough indeed!

[pepperpot99]

SAHD I consulted the 11 plus forum two years ago for my dc and wish I hadn't bothered. I was advised to book up lots of mock exams ( which cost lots) and was contacted by forum members trying to get me to sign them up as tutors for my kid. Really pushy and weird. Wouldn't touch that place with a bargepole

[poisonedbypen]

Pepperpot, I hope you reported them as I'm sure they would be banned or at least suspended by the mods.

[EllyMayClampett]

I think you do need to prepare DC to get places at London SS grammar schools. Even "naturally bright" children. That might mean doing practice/ filling curriculum gaps yourself or paying for a tutor. In London it's not a pass/fail but a tournament where the participants push the competition to go further and higher. CEM tests have very tight time pressure. So it's essentially to drill children and "speed them up." It's very different from private school exams who have the luxury of looking for "depth."

By all means lurk on the 11+ Forum, you will learn a lot. Just don't lose your sense of perspective.

[HerdsOfWilderbeest]

The lady who does my nails (Philippino - arrived here 20 years ago) has a son who failed the Kent test but passed the Bexley test and is going to Beths. I was quite surprised as I think Beths, Bexley grammar and chis and Sid are the only Bexley grammars..?

[MarshHarriet]

the pastoral care should have been a hell of a lot better, considering the mental health issues that tend to go hand in hand with selective schools for girls.

Really? . Is this true? Do they go to these schools because they have mental health issues or does the schooling induce mental health issues? In which case, why are so many people so desperate to pursue places? Or are high achieving girls at a higher risk in any school environment?

[PettsWoodParadise]

Herds, there is one more Bexley Grammar, Townley (girls only) which in past years including for September 2015 entry has offered to all who applied.

[amidawish]

high achieving girls are at high risk of mh issues