Nikki out, Justine in

[bojorojo]

Will the new Government be more supportive of new grammar schools and change the law to allow new stand-alone ones? Theresa May wants one in her constituency and all the anti grammar school brigade have gone: Gove, Morgan, Cameron and Osborne. The BBC is reporting this could be on the agenda.

[HPFA]

smaller independent secondary schools will go to the wall, as middle class parents just don't see the point of shelling out £15k a year

Possibly, although they will be able to appeal to those parents who don't feel quite the same enthusiasm for those fabulous secondary moderns when it's their own children going to them, rather than other people's.

[Peregrina]

One thing which will almost certainly happen if more Grammar Schools are allowed, is that some smaller independent secondary schools will go to the wall, as middle class parents just don't see the point of shelling out £15k a year. There could be a boom in little private prep schools which prepare for the 11+.

[HPFA]

Regarding new free schools, they could be selective schools if the rules are changed to allow them to be. It only takes a few parents to set one up.

But that was my point Bojorojo a few parents could effectively change the education system of a whole town!

At the moment if you want to change a grammar/ secondary modern town to a comp town you have to hold a ballot of all parents. Yet under Graham Brady's proposals the reverse wouldn't apply -you could turn a comp town into a grammar/sec mod town even if the majority were opposed. I would have thought even the most fervent supporters of selection would see the basic injustice of that.

[bojorojo]

The proposal in Maidenhead was for a satellite school of Sir William Borlase's school which is over the border in Marlow, Bucks. Lots of children from Maidenhead already go there. I would imagine there are lots of grammar schools that could expand in this way. It will damage the comprehensives to an extent but in some ways they are not truly comprehensive at the moment if so many go to a nearby grammar school.

Regarding new free schools, they could be selective schools if the rules are changed to allow them to be. It only takes a few parents to set one up.

I think schools sharing expertise, is, on the face of it, is sensible. However parents may not be quite so keen if the pooled resource ends up being in the RI school and not the Outstanding school chosen by the parents. Schools often cooperate but the logistics of moving children and teachers is often seen as one step too many. I know of federated special schools where this model works well, but they are small schools with very special facilities and staff.

[HPFA]

Has anyone thought about how new grammars will be re-introduced? Graham Brady in today's Telegraph has an easy solution. Basically, an existing grammar should be able to expand "without jumping through hoops" (those hoops presumably being objections from the inconvenient parents whose kids will be in the new secondary moderns)and a new grammar can set up as a free school if a few parents want it.
So, let's see what that would mean in practice. You live in a town with a great comp but a few parents want a grammar. They get one and the comp becomes a de facto secondary modern, because if you have a bright child you'll almost certainly feel obliged to choose the grammar even if you would have preferred a genuine comp. And it won't matter if, 80% or even 90% of the people in that town want a comp rather than a grammar and a secondary modern, they won't get any say in it. It won't help if your local council disapproves because they have no power to stop a free school.
"Take back control?" What a joke

[Lurkedforever1]

That's exactly what I mean bad. We're semi rural, and it's similar here. But it could be reorganised. With very rural areas though it may not be possible however you reorganise, just because by the time you'd got enough pupils for a cohort they'd be too spread out.

[Badbadbunny]

except for very rural areas it could be done if anyone really wanted to try. Church schools, along with some privates and grammars have dc coming from miles

My son has to be up and out of the house by 7.30 to walk/bus the 5 miles to his school in our main town (we're in a village just on the outskirts). (1 mile walk to the main road bus stop outside the village and a mile from the city centre bus station to his school!).

If he'd gone to another popular school across the county border, some 20 miles away, he could get the 8.00 am direct bus virtually door to door with no walking as it comes straight through the village and stops virtually outside the school gates.

Sometimes, distance isn't a problem, it's crazy bus routes that can often mean quicker/easier to go large distances than short!

[Lurkedforever1]

bojo except for very rural areas it could be done if anyone really wanted to try. Church schools, along with some privates and grammars have dc coming from miles, You could work it either by holding the classes at a central point or rotating round the schools, whichever works best. With timetabling so dc would attend for a half or full day at a time, rather than for single lessons.

[Peregrina]

But nice for those middle class parents who don't have to stump up for an independent school.

[Peregrina]

And again, more grammar schools does not address the real problem of this country which is poor vocational education, with low status.

[bojorojo]

Collaborative working is great in areas where there are lots of schools. Where there are 5/15 miles between schools, in rural areas, this is far more difficult to achieve because travelling time means it is prohibitive. Even in cities, collaborative working is difficult. My niece can go to a linked school for 6th form. Except she has to walk 25 minutes to her original school to get the 6th form bus that leaves at 8. 00 am. This is in a large city!

[bojorojo]

Hi Peter.

In Maidenhead, the bright children already get into Sir William Borlase's Grammar School in nearby Marlow. It would make more difference to other Berkshire comprehensive schools whose pupils would then become "in catchment" for the new SWB satellite grammar school in Maidenhead. More comprehensive schools in Berkshire would suffer a loss of their brightest pupils who, at the moent,do notg eant to travel to Marlow. Nearby Slough has grammar schools as well, so Maidenhead has lots of grammars nearby. It is a similar situation in Milton Keynes where children go "out of county" to grammars in Aylesbury and Buckingham. Some of the comprehensives in MK are not truly comprehensive and their results suffer.

I do not think the reintroduction of grammar schools where they do not exist is a good idea, but I hear this morning that there is more governmental "chat" about it, no doubt feulled by the fact that Theresa May is not against them.

[HPFA]

I don't think it would even need to be in different schools entirely, it could be done as a group effort between several schools to get a decent size cohort for any subject. That way kids with spiky profiles could be accomodated too, rather than a future Einstein missing out.

Lurked, I think ironically the endless debate on grammar schools has probably hindered sensible suggestions like this one. There are three small schools in my town so it should be reasonably easy to run say a Maths superset if there were enough exceptional high-flyers to justify it. But schemes like this would probably just have the pro-grammars saying "It just shows we actually need grammars"

[Peregrina]

The comprehensives in my area have a sixth form consortium, which is the same idea. It would be good if they could bring this down to the GCSE level - as long as it wasn't one school offering all the languages, and another offering the Child Care and Hairdressing diplomas. I am not sure of the logistics of it. Two schools are within walking distance, so it could work, the third school is further away, so I imagine it would require either careful timetabling or bussing. The sixth form arraingement has been in place for at least 20 years, and I doubt whether it would have got off the ground in the current educational climate.

[Ionacat]

The grammar school debate is fairly simple. Those of us who live in areas with great comprehensives that really do cater for all abilities, wonder why people would want to bring back grammar schools. Those people who live in grammar school areas or places where the schools aren't so good see them as a panacea for stretching bright children. We should be campaigning for great schools for all that really do cater for everyone, however to do this Ofsted needs a reform and instead of focussing on data which encourages gaming of the system, it should be looking at the curricuum on offer and how it suits the needs of the different learners. (And the government needs to fund schools to do it so they can run the smaller options.)

The schools round my way formed a consortium for vocational learning at 14, so everyone could access hairdressing, catering, construction and horticulture. (It has now pretty much folded thanks to the ebacc, but was a great way of offering great vocational education.) Schools should be working together like this for all abilities so subjects like Latin (and increasingly the arts) can be open to all.

[Peter1943]

We should be clear about Mrs May's position regarding the establishment of a satellite grammar school in Maidenhead. Her reply to a letter that I sent her can be summed up as saying that if the local people want a satellite grammar school, she would respect their wishes, so that parents have the choice of which type of school they send their children to.
This sentiment is consistent with her approach to other matters, especially Brexit. I wonder what her position would be if popular sentiment could be demonstrated as demanding re nationalisation of the railways, for example.
Of course, it is not so consistent of her to equate the provision of a grammar school with increased choice for parents. For most parents, it would represent a decrease in choice as the courses available at comprehensives and the opportunity for students to improve their academic performance, reduced to the role of secondary modern schools, would be compromised.

[Badbadbunny]

As per usual the most able dc are always bottom of the list for the best teachers.

Indeed at my DS's school the "top" set for English are going to have probably the worst English teacher they have, no doubt on the assumption that those kids will do well regardless of the teaching quality. The best teachers get the middle groups. The second worst teacher gets the bottom group as they're pretty much written off anyway.

[Lurkedforever1]

Yy badbunny. It only needs faith criteria crossing off admissions. You don't even need the complexity of church owned property etc. Just 30 seconds of delete.

Whilst I recognise your flower arranging parents, it always amused me that the oh so religious never clamoured for Dd's church primary, which had no faith criteria and an undeserved bad reputation. Instead they always had space whilst those who couldn't get into the naice church primaries which were feeders for good secondaries, suddenly decided religion was private and they wanted the non denominational outstandings.

[peachpudding]

Faith schools definitely cause problems. Its the lying to get into them that seems so grubby.

If you banned all selection then watch house inflation skyrocket beside schools for the middle class. Selection by house price will take over big time.

Partial selection by sporting, acting, musical, artistic, mathematics etc should be a good thing because it allows enough of a level of excellence to cluster that a full comp usually just doesn't have. And there is no lying involved.

I dont see why you have to bring back secondary moderns back.

[ClaireBlunderwood]

Oh I agree Badbunny with getting rid of all forms of selection in state schools, faith admissions are just the one that I'd sort out first (I'm only education sec for a day so I have to be quick). They definitely have the most egregious effect.

My kids all went to nearest (requires improvement) primary, but have to confess that eldest has now gone to private secondary so I know we're part of the problem and are stinking hypocrites. But where we are in central London if you're not religious or musical or able to get into super-dooper selective (and willing for your child to travel 2 hours a day) or rent next door to Camden Girls, then you are left with the schools that have almost all the motivated children stripped out and huge problems with transience, deprivation etc.

I really want my children to be in properly representative comprehensive state schools, however where you have selection of any sort you end up with default secondary moderns. Why anyone would argue to create secondary moderns formally is beyond me.

[peachpudding]

I am NOT suggesting we should bring back the binary GS/SM system. A lot of MN posters seem to use the idea of Grammar to mean middle class privilege of a good school with well behaved children and good results etc. I am suggesting a small number of free schools be set up almost like special needs schools for children that are so bright no school within the local city/area can provide for them.

[Lurkedforever1]

mini no, it's to do with low aspirations for their pupils. Ignoring the badly run one, the 'good for everyone average and below' comp near by does have the staff. From talking to teachers at the open evening and parents of dc there, the science teachers are generally good, and in favour of offering seperate too. And at least two language teachers are more than capable of teaching a second mfl. One maths teacher has in the past let able dc do the stats gcse alongside. But because they aren't given time, it really was a case of those dc bright enough to be handed the textbook and work through in normal maths lessons. So only advisable for dc who will get an a effortlessly, not those who with normal lessons could get a in both. And top sets rarely get her. As per usual the most able dc are always bottom of the list for the best teachers, the ones able to differentiate across the ability range. It's the leadership that are choosing to ignore the needs of able dc.

As for the shit school, again it's leadership that are responsible for the lack of decent teachers. They drive them off.

In theory the top 1% or so shouldn't need to be educated seperately. But practically it would be the cheaper and easier option. I don't think it would even need to be in different schools entirely, it could be done as a group effort between several schools to get a decent size cohort for any subject. That way kids with spiky profiles could be accomodated too, rather than a future Einstein missing out.

[peachpudding]

nooka
super applied kids can be advanced grades... be in classes with older children at school...university courses next year to run alongside...

None of that is possible in England.

minifingerz
I am not saying all comprehensives comps can't provide for extremely bright children. But outside of London its rare to find a large enough extremely bright cohort for it to be possible to provide such.

[Badbadbunny]

Even that isn't just as straightforward as might be thought. Up and down the country a lot of village primary schools are Church schools, (mostly CofE, but RC in some parts) which cater to the children in the village, and attendance at Church doesn't really come into it.

Indeed, but for most faith secondaries, you need to accumulate points to get a place which usually means needing a form signed by the local vicar to confirm church attendance - the more you attend, the more points you get! Without church attendance, you're unlikely to have enough points to secure a place. That's why churches are usually a lot busier with families etc in the Autumn and those same people disappear again once the vicar has signed the forms!!

For the real paranoid parents, you'll find they put themselves on the church cleaning rota, the flower rota or the tea/biscuit rota, sometimes for a year or two. They then get so many points for regular attendance over a couple of years, they're guaranteed a place. Then you never see them again, and a new group of paranoid parents take their places.

And you thought 11+ tuition was crazy!

[Peregrina]

So it's Faith Secondary schools which are the big problem. We have one RC secondary school within 8 miles of us, but that is the only Faith school I can think of, and I think it comes into the "it's OK category" rather than being hugely oversubscribed.