From Prep school to State Secondary??

[ProfDumbledore]

Hello All

I have briefly been through the discussions here but need a bit of guidance. My DD goes to a very good prep school where she joined in year 3 and is extremely happy. Although boy/girl ratio is not equal, she seems happy in the company of boys. She is in year 5 so next year is very important regarding next school. Living in North West London we have a choice of some very good and some excellent but very academic senior private schools. DD is doing well in her studies and plays piano.

Our dilemma is that we have an outstanding senior state school less than one mile from our house which offers an excellent curriculum and the headmaster cares greatly about his school. Going to this school will mean our DD will have a good education and will have friends that live very local to us.

We are not sure whether to continue the private route. Senior school will cost approxim £6k a term in fees plus very expensive school trips etc. Whilst we are not rich, we are comfortable and if DD goes to private senior, it will inevitably affect our lifestyle to some degree.

we are finding it difficult to decide what to do. Many children in the prep schools and primary state schools are being tutored which kind of goes against my belief of putting in private.

What is it like in senior private - say somewhere like St Helens or Northwood College, Habs and an outstanding senior state school? I am talking not only academics but the type of girls/families that go to these schools? Is it all academic? Are there families who care about the other important aspects of life? I'm don't want to upset anyone but I have noticed that many families only care about academics and getting their children into the school of the parents' choice rather than the choice of the child. I could be wrong but I have heard it first hand from many families.

I apologise if this is going over old ground but I desperately need some guidance from your experiences to help me.

We will be going to many of the open days this year to gauge what our DD likes.

Thank you in advance and apologies if I have offended anyone.

[BoboChic]

Another thing to do is to delve down deep into headline figures on A-level or IB results (or whatever school leaving exams the school offers) and university destinations. Schools are increasingly strategic and tactical to produce great headline results but, as a parent, you need to know whether the school is good at delivering the subjects and university destinations that you value. Nothing beats a bit of comparative data plotted on Excel and playing around with graphs to reveal the relative strengths of schools.

[AgonyBeetle]

I would say, with hindsight (three of my dc now post-GCSE or post-school) that the main thing that matters is how well the environment will suit the child.

My dc went on from a very mixed state primary to mainstream secondaries. Other dc from the same primary went to a complete range of schools - rough comprehensive, sought-after comprehensive, state selective, private (we're i London, so a huge range of schools available). Without exception the dc got the results that you would have predicted for them at age 9 or 10 based on their ability and personality rather than the schools they attended - dc in rough comps coming out with 11 A*, dc in private and super-selective schools comign out with a very mixed bag of GCSEs, not significantly better than their peers in non-selective non-pushy schools.

Pick the school that your heart tells you your child will be happiest in, and don't try to over-think it.

[BoboChic]

Too many girls private schools are delivering humanities-heavy education IMVHO. It makes nabbing that Oxford MFL place easier but is that what you want for your DD? I'm slightly [massive understatement] horrified at the Finishing School style education being delivered by some so-called top schools.

[bojorojo]

As a Mum of a linguist, it is impossible to push some pupils away from where their talents lie. It could be English, History or MFL. MFL is easier to get into at Oxbridge because of lack of suitable applicants - too few state educated pupils . It is not necessarily a boy/girl issue. These subjects are hardly easy! If MFL was easy, why don't state educated pupils excel at it?

There are disruptive pupils in private schools. Class sizes have little to do with it. Rich parents can have disruptive pupils. My DDs experienced quite a few in their time!

Also, regarding "finishing" schools- there are plenty of parents who are more than happy for their DDs to interior design the homes of their friends or sell advertising space for Tatler! They will be trying to find the rich (socially acceptable) husband so a career is not vital. However, even in these schools, some parents will want their girls to excel in their chosen field, but not everyone can do STEM subjects and my DDs would never have felt comfortable had they been pushed in this direction. However the schools had a broad curriculum but obviously some girls' schools market the school to the type of parent likely to choose them.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Habs is really not a finishing school type of environment.

[senua]

Many children in the prep schools and primary state schools are being tutored which kind of goes against my belief of putting in private.

Do you know how many Senior, private school pupils are also getting tutored? I would be livid if I shelled out £6,000 a term for a school's reputation only to find that a lot of the results were down to tutoring, not teaching.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

IMVHO a fair few parents tutor unnecessarily.

The prep schools have it covered but parents become convinced that extra support is par for the course. They're not the type of people to leave anything to chance. And money's not an issue so ...

But no parent has to buy in to this stuff. You can let the prep school do it's job .

[Clavinova]

It might help if you examine why you took your dd out of state education two years ago. What were your reasons for starting her at the prep in Year 3 and are these reasons still relevant for senior school?

[Clavinova]

Not everyone that auditions gets a part in the concert/play/musicals - and nor should they. For me that sentence says even more about the sense of entitlement you might get as a result of going to a certain type of school.

Surely it says more about the opportunities available at many private schools not least because of the facilities, the budgets available and the size of the year groups - many comprehensive schools will have year groups twice the size of their nearest independent school. Also, don't underestimate the amount of work involved in staging a concert/play/musical - pupils attending play rehearsals 6 Sundays in a row doesn't scream 'entitlement' to me.

Good people in state schools do well despite any disruptive behaviour, they learn how to deal with it which is probably why they are more likely to do better at university.

Is there a problem with disruptive behaviour in university lectures? I hope not.
I'm not so sure about state educated pupils doing better at university. Back in September the Higher Education Funding Council for England published a report which stated that 82% of graduates from state schools achieved a first or upper second degree (in 2014) compared with 73% of graduates from independent schools. However it now transpires that the HEFCE TRANSPOSED ITS FIGURES IN ERROR AND THEY SHOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND - 82% of privately educated graduates achieved a first or upper second degree compared with 73% of state educated graduates. Of course, the figures were amended quietly without a public correction despite the original figures being headlined by the BBC and the Daily Mail etc.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/university-funding-body-made-disturbing-blunder-with-claim-state-school-students-perform-better-a6718201.html

[MonsterDeCookie]

Thanks for the link Clavinova. I had no idea there had been such a fundamental mistake in that report. I've heard the 'state school kids get a higher class degree more often' repeated quite a bit and clearly it isn't true!

[LillianGish]

don't underestimate the amount of work involved in staging a concert/play/musical believe me I don't. But the auditions by their very nature are supposed to be selective - that's the whole point of them. Not everyone can have a part - some people will have to be in the crowd or help out backstage. No shame in that.

[FanDabbyFloozy]

Op - can you say which state school? If it's HBS or similar (say one of the Watford grammars), frankly you can't go wrong.. However if it's more of a comp by distance, e.g. Fortismere, I would put Habs ahead of it, but not Northwood College.

[Bolognese]

Clavinova- way to spin a story. The error is on HEFCE's main page and it clearly states that even with the mistake corrected it does not change the substance of the report. Quote: "State school graduates out-perform independent school graduates by four percentage points."

[BabyGanoush]

Senua, guess there is no data on that.

Of all the kids I know at selective private day school (secondary) about half get tutored or even Kumoned

Am always surprised by this

[BoboChic]

DC whose parents have invested considerable resources in ensuring they go to a very good and expensive school are surely also pretty likely to be parents who choose to support their DC's education in multiple other ways, including tutoring? Tutoring takes many different forms. Some lucky DC have all the educational assistance they need in house but if parents cannot help, purchasing help is surely better than taking risks with not understanding/progressing/accumulating gaps in their knowledge (which can be frighteningly insidious)?

[Kennington]

Depends if you want the soft skills well honed!
The level of confidence and ability to behave in certain situations seems to be developed in the private sector.
I would also look at the intake to university - where are they going and what subjects?
I agree about low level mobile phone disruption in some schools. My mother had to deal with this and gave up because the second she said anything she got abuse from the children, and then their parents - because a mobile phone was considered some sort of essential safety requitement!!!
This was five years ago and she wonders if there is something of a lost generation of children just being missed because of tolerance of low level disruption.

[Clavinova]

Clavinova-way to spin a story. The error is on the HEFCE's main page and it clearly states that even with the mistake corrected it does not change the substance of the report. Quote: "State school graduates outperform independent school graduates by four percentage points."

How can you be four points ahead if you are nine points behind? That doesn't make sense to me. This article in University Business tries to explain;

universitybusiness.co.uk/Article/hefce-blunder-over-state-vs-private-school-degree-passes

(scroll down)

"Although HEFCE has changed the figures in the report, it still repeats that state school pupils are four percentage points ahead rather than nine points behind."

"A likely explanation for this contradiction is that HEFCE is calculating what state school students would have achieved had they the same entry qualifications as independent school students. But they did not.

Three times as many of the students from independent school pupils achieved three or more A grades at A-level. Less than half the state school entrants achieved at least three grade Cs."

Professor Smithers (who discovered the error) said: "While statistical alchemy may be able to turn a nine-point deficit into a four-point advantage, ultimately university admissions tutors have to deal with real people not statistical constructs."

"The report was quietly altered after the error was privately (brought) to HEFCE's attention, but they still have not issued a public correction."

From the Independent;
"For such an august body as HEFCE, in charge of delivering university funding in England, it was a monumental error which, if undetected, could have led to a re-appraisal of university admissions policies.

Because of the impact of the original report, HEFCE should have issued a public correction to its very public report, rather than just correct the figures in the report.

[sendsummer]

Don't the stats basically say that slightly more of the cohort of state students with lower A level grades achieved a better degree class than the cohort of private sector students with lower A level grades. It is not relevant to the cohorts achieving A or above.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

send

Basically, yes. Not surprising really. Too many state schooled pupils under expect and end up on courses for which they are over qualified.

At the other end of the spectrum, the difference is marginal, although state schooled students are still slightly more likely to obtain a first.

At the university where I work (very selective), this is almost certainly due to perception in the state sector that only the truly exceptional need apply, and not because the state sector provides better preparation.

The existence of contextual offers shows that there is a widely accepted issue.

[bojorojo]

Kennington. Many schools have a "no-phones on in the classroom" policy. However, some schools allow research in the classroom via phones. If you allow this, then you allow phones and have to manage the problems that go with that. No SMT should allow a child to have a phone on all day in the classroom in my view. There is no safety or emergency issue at all for the child to contend with but weak management has allowed it.

I think it is highly likely that overall state school pupils obtain firsts. There are way more of them and private schools do not have every single diligent child. A couple of young people I know who have firsts - I am truly amazed at how this was possible! There are firsts from selective universities and then there are firsts from low ranking recruiting universities. There is a massive difference and firsts in some subjects from some universitites that recruit with CCC at A level are not highly prized by many employers. I will now wait for the crescendo of messages saying I am wrong!

[ScottishProf]

Since someone asked, in a university and subject where most students have all As, I have sometimes encountered problems in first year lectures, in the form of people talking (often relevantly, I think) over me such that others can't hear. They are always slightly surprised to be asked not to do this, but seem quite willing to learn! As much as anything it depends on the acoustic of the lecturer theatre: some are much more forgiving than others. I don't recall encountering lack of attention in small group teaching, though lack of the preparation that would let them participate is another matter.

By the way, always be wary about university staff saying "I can tell the students who come from [school type] because...". If they actually know which students from a large enough set to be more than a tiny anecdote come from what kind of school, the university isn't doing its data protection job very well!

[Bolognese]

Selective media stats = lies bad info. Read the ACTUAL report

Clavinova: Your confusing different percentages. Taking into account many factors eg, degree subject, ethnicity, gender, additional schooling effects, GCSE attainment, postcode-based measures of disadvantage etc.
The 9% behind is just one of many contributory statistics that contribute to the overall figure of 4% ahead. Students with similar prior attainment from independent schools do consistently less well at the end of their degree studies than students from other schools and colleges

This agrees with 2015 figures that England's best state schools are outperforming the top private schools.

bojorojo: State pupils do not do better because there are more of them (statistics refresher needed).

[MonsterDeCookie]

Degrees aside, privately educated children do earn more once they have graduated.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33775082

[Lurkedforever1]

Iirc didn't the research only show that state educated pupils with slightly lower marks at entrance did equally well as private pupils with slightly higher entrance marks? (And I'm talking about the difference between a and a, not private pupils with all a leaving with equal degrees to state pupils with b's and c's). With the conclusion being that bright children in the state system don't always leave with results reflecting their ability. I.e that in some cases private schools can maximise a childs potential, and in some cases state schools don't maximise potential. Hardly compelling evidence state schools always provide a better grounding for uni. And not to mention there is a world of difference between state schools.

[Bolognese]

The power of the old boys' network lives on: privately educated students earn more than those with identical qualifications educated by the state.

Equal pay for equal skills will be the movement for this century.