GCSE options / is Business Studies viewed as a 'soft' / easy subject or well respected these days?

[Boysandme]

DS1 has to pick options soon for his GCSE subjects.

I know some subjects are viewed as soft subjects and also that business studies has been up and down as to how well respected it is.

Anyone know what the current thinking is?

Thanks

[HoHonutty]

We told DS to do the options he would enjoy most and also hopefully get an A/A in. A couple would be considered soft but since he got his grades none of the sixth forms we looked at asked anything except how many A/As.

He did really well btw and is now doing 4 academic A levels.

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

Incidentally, when DD 1 was choosing her options and she told them her parents had advised strongly against np doing BS GCSE she was told we were wrong, and it was a great subject. She then reminded the teacher she was talking to what our jobs actually are. And that she would rather die than do anything similar. He moved swiftly on. :)

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

SG - you're right, the quality of new intakes since 2000 has been a problem. Numeracy is usually fine and arguably better overall than in the old days when Maths was 'harder' and thus fewer people did it - in a business situation nobody will ever need to be able to integrate or do Z plane stuff, complex numbers etc - but discounting? Yep. CAPM? Yep. Modeling? Yep. So numberscy skills up to a point are crucial - but so are writing and analytical skills and history (especially the way it is taught these days) is great for those.

Skylark's posts are very interesting - I did a bit of fortran in holiday jobs when I was at university, also C+ - but never seriously considered a programming career (I'm just not good enough, although my Maths background means I can grasp the basics of anything quite quickly, it's going beyond the basics that undoes me). It seems to me though that while fortran might not be respected by MN mothers and teachers of other subjects, it's respected by employers (hence skylark's career success). Which is the opposite of BS which is clearly respected by MN mothers (parents of those doing it, or people who did it themselves, or people who teach it) but not by admissions tutors, people who teach business and similar at undergraduate postgraduate and professional qualification level, and people who recruit graduate or school leaver trainees and people in business based professions (law, accountancy, marketing) (people in all these roles have commented on this thread).

[SG29]

infinitely more useful as a subject than Geography or History ( from the point of view of running a future vet. Practice)
It depends a lot on the area you end up working in. I admit I can't see how these would be useful for running a vet practice, but in marketing if I had to single out one degree that I have found over the years to be the best preparation, it would be geography (and this is a popular degree among employers in the field). It doesn't sound obvious, but in practice they prove to have the right skills, mindset, and often have done remarkably similar projects. (The ones that apply usually have done at least some human geography.)

History, which a few people have referred to as impractical, has come a long way from the days when it was just memorising dates of battles, and now some are doing a lot of research, writing, analysis, conclusions drawing, and these people can have some really good fundamental skills and abilities, although the issue with history graduates is that they usually aren't numerate enough. Even this is changing though as I think there is a trend towards using quantitative information sometimes.

A lot of it is about the underlying skills and education, which sounds waffly, but does really matter. The "practical" and business skills we are very well able to teach them at work, and will have to do so anyway even if they have already taken these subjects. Abilities like writing, understanding and using numbers, having the potential to interpret information and draw sensible conclusions, are much harder if we haven't got a solid base to work from. In the 1990s (looking old here!) it wasn't a problem, but since the early 2000s, it's been a big one.

Going back to the original poster, as long as your son isn't giving up academic classes he might as well do something he is interested in. I took business for three years in high school, and although the impression that it was going contribute to my progress in this field was really illusory, at the time I loved the feeling that I was already doing something useful on my chosen path, and it was very motivating. I did get a lot of pressure to take extra science classes instead of business, as bright children were expected to go this route, but I was firm about the direction I was going. (And ironically, I got accepted to MIT which nobody else in my school ever did... The value of working hard because you're motivated and interested.) Business studies sound a lot more interesting nowadays anyway; I would have loved cricket balls' class.

[naty1]

But then as it was 1 module it was never going to be enough to use it anyway.
Bear in mind this was a management science degree.
I presume though you now know other languages and tgey are easy to pick up.

Im not sure there would be jobs for all my coursemates in it though - being over 200 per yr churned out.
I doubt 1 of them has used it since.
The yr after did VB probably easier to learn in the time allotted.
I assume you were doing a computing degree?
My mum is a computer programmer. And i dont think ever taught it when a teacher. Though i can see no real pt updating all the time to the next language you need the principles and then you can do any.
If id done VB it would have been useful at least a couple of times at work, no actually i was asked to be in charge of amending the database using VB but couldnt. Stupid short modules that dont teach enough of anything - except maybe word, excel, access.
It seemed like all the programmers team were using VB (possibly badly) but then everything is cobbled together.

Maybe i should retrain?
What field do they use it in?
I assume maths ones as it was a maths degree and i think language.
I guess with a mixed degree there are bits different people use, others used the accounting and worked for pwc, law-> lawyers. But i doubt ever enough just a taste of it to know you want to go into it.
Id have had to do another follow on degree to be a programmer.
I cant however see an issue teaching it as an option in a computing degree (if it is used in industry)

[skylark2]

"But then degrees arent aimed at being useful in work - i mean they taught fortran "

naty, I'm a professional Fortran programmer and have been ever since I left university, on the basis that I learned it there. Pretty highly paid, too. Probably because of the misinformation people like you spread, competent people are few and far between. If you want to specialise in a computer language that's "name your price", Fortran is a darn good choice. Far better than learning This Years Most Trendy and competing with 10,000 script kiddies for 100 minimum wage jobs.

I guess this is another example of a not well respected subject. I'd say I've had the last laugh.

[naty1]

I think like politics did other humanities things at my uni in first year.
I wouldnt want to extend uni to 4 yrs to fit other courses in
Not at a very overpriced for value 9k per yr.
Thing is uni is academic, work not so much. Its largely personality too. I would have hated the graduate jobs i applied to as i want to know what im doing not blindly make decisions.
Someone i know on the program was part of a team that 'reorganised' our dept making 'improvements' about stuff the couldnt do, didnt understand and was possibly the reason i moved depts as they nearly bankrupt it with their miscalculations about how many staff were needed (ignoring holiday and sickness and that no 2 people work the same or the pointless 20min meetings every day) but i bet that was spun as a huge success.
Maybe a managing staff option in my management science might have been useful.

[lljkk]

At Uni in USA we had to take many courses not at all related to our actual major. My degree was computing in a social science area. I also had 3 hr x 15week courses in public speaking, Art History, Politics of the Middle East, Rainforest medicines, creative writing, archery, History of Western Civilisation and probably half a dozen other subjects not remotely part of my major (with exams that counted fully towards final grades).

I got a huge amount out of those & remember them fondly. They enriched my life. I reject any premise that only "Academic" subjects are worthwhile for academic people. You can't easily predict what will be valuable later. Enterprise is one of the Big Deal Goals in Academia nowadays (yes I work in Uni research). Formal training and real practice at constructing & implementing business models & understanding marketing principles could be hugely helpful to the most Academic of people. Possibly extra useful to boffins who don't easily think that way.

[naty1]

If i was an employer i think i would care most about gcse maths and highest grade possible. Then sciences as again demonstrates accuracy.
Languages, art would depend on the job.
I think i would prefer employees to focus on those and get good grades than stretch to lots of gcses and drop the main ones. But actually typing and IT basics would be great.
Ive noticed at work, i worked with 2 chemistry graduates and their accuracy was the highest of all members of staff i worked with, they picked things up so quickly and could teach others. Now the history MA, couldnt understand and we had to give up when they found her crying about it. Now this was sort of a maths area but not like it was accounting qualifications.
The volume of errors is due to not valuing the core subjects more at interview. What good a degree if you cant write or add up? (But can talk yourself up at interview. I guess history/english can really come in useful there.)

[dodo3]

www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/business-subjects/gcse/business-subjects-and-economics-4130/subject-content

They already do BS/ economics GCSE, Smokepole

[smokepole]

I think at GCSE level there is obviously a crossover between Economics/Business studies and why not introduce a single exam incorporating both. I know after GCSE level , they both become different disciplines. However, it could/would give a pupil a look at both Economics/Business and therefore the pupil would be able to choose which one to study at A Level Degree level...

[canny1234]

Its not well respected by you Rabbit obviously.I'm just not sure you're the fountain of all knowledge

[Lilymaid]

"I think it would be better if Economics GCSE/A Level was intergrated with Business studies into a single Qualification. This would give what could be a useful qualification, academic quality in the yes of the University or peoples perceptions."
Erm, why? Both my DCs have taken A Level Economics and then gone on to Economics degrees and Masters. They would not want to take business studies as part of their course. If they want to do business studies, they'll do an MBA.

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

The OP asked if BS GCSE was well respected. The answer is, it isn't. That doesn't mean kids don't enjoy it, or get good grades from it. But it isn't well respected.

[canny1234]

Rabbit I don't think the vast majority of students do Business Studies at GCSE believe that this is going to help them get a job in business.That was not the question originally being asked by the o.p.It is infinitely more useful as a subject than Geography or History ( from the point of view of running a future vet. Practice) to my dd.OK thats just one example but I'm sure there's many more.

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

Canny the 'knocking' is partly because it's neither useful nor valid. For the reasons outlined above. And partly because of the inflated claims which are being made for it. A student taking business studies GCSE because they think they will enjoy it and/or do well in it is doing the right thing. A student taking business studies GCSE because they think it will benefit them beyond enjoyment/a decent grade has been missold the course.

[smokepole]

Eyes of the University and peoples perceptions.

[smokepole]

Talkinpeace. Lifestyle Businesses !. Lifestyle does that means staying up every single night, worrying that the banks are going to foreclose on you , not having enough money to pay the wages E.T.C. This is not a Lifestyle choice any Sane person would make, however for the likes of myself and Dad/Mum(similar) we are/were unemployable to any other business.

There is no amount of theory (Including Degree Level) that teaches you how to deal with a sudden collapse of a previously successful business model, caused by outside influences. However, I am sure Business Studies GCSE can be interesting and give a little bit of insight into the outside world and possibly allow for the pupil to express an opinion.

I am also of the belief that these types of GCSEs should be regarded in a higher way. I think it would be better if Economics GCSE/A Level was intergrated with Business studies into a single Qualification. This would give what could be a useful qualification, academic quality in the yes of the University or peoples perceptions.

[canny1234]

My ddd is doing the GCSE along with the 3 sciences,3 languages including Latin lit.as well as the normal 2 English and Maths.She goes to an independent girls school ( one of the top 100).She loves it and finds it really interesting and incidentally regularly gets 100 %.Her preferred future career is Veterinary Science and Business Studies will be extremely useful.More so than another language or art/drama ( which she already does as an outside extra) will be.
I really can't understand all the knocking of this subject.Its an extremely useful valid subject at GCSE level.

[lljkk]

.

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

Music and art are not soft subjects, in any sense of the word. They also facilitate some careers/further study.

[naty1]

Cricket, i think,did you take it at gcse or alevel?

Op i also did management science and have never used any of the basic degree only the computing side. (In a large organisation)
They just dont bother learning BS. As each dept is so separate its mostly admin jobs anyway.
But then degrees arent aimed at being useful in work - i mean they taught fortran :(.
My DP was taught, cant remember name but it should have been autocad, he had to completely retrain as there were no jobs that used it. LOL

I wouldnt close off the doors to other things by taking something that isnt necessary to progress.

I wish my school didnt force RE as i could have taken another language.
They didnt offer Bs gcse (independent) but at alevel and i think 1 person took it.
I think it has something to do with if youre in the top sets you probably have interests in traditional subjects you want to follow. Like i would have done more languages, geography, maybe IT.
History really hasnt been useful to me, and i was bad at a lot of it, but the value of learning all about the WWs, i still remember how shocking it is and odd that those that didnt do gcse havent /hadnt learnt any of that.
Soft subjects - music, art, BS are worth taking if you are really good at them, and maybe not so good at traditional subjects but will get an A at them.
Though really it may be best to let him decide. My school encouraged me to do alevel all science :( i have certainly never needed chemistry and i got a D. It was because i thought i would do biology degree.

I know young people are working to the tests, the level they are being set, but unfortunately they are getting easier.
I got only a few As at gcse (out of 10) like 20yrs ago. I did a spanish gcse about 5 yrs ago and got an A*. With evening classes and only maybe half the teacher time. I learnt the whole gcse in a year with working FT.
I then did Alevel and got (only) an A. With ridiculously less teaching hours, maybe a quarter. This was much higher than my alevels , ok they were science, and i am quite good at languages. But i still dont think that equates to a 2-3 grade increase. Most of the class got A-a gcse and at least half A-a alevel, though i will allow some were language secondary teachers.

[TheWordFactory]

It's exactly the same for law.

A GCSE or A level in law will be of no use to you whatsoever if you want to either study law at university as an academic pursuit and/or become a lawyer.

It might ignite an interest but it will teach you little.

[RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria]

Do you require your employees to have BS GCSE or A level? Do you favour applicants who do? Or do you, in fact, employ people with professional qualifications (or degrees) which don't require BS GCSE or A level (and often prefer it is students don't have these)?

[dodo3]

Dodo and your opinion is based on what experience/expertise?

I think owning several businesses and employing over 300 staff helps to have an opinion.

I would always encourage academic subjects along side more useful for life subjects, BS being one of them.