Richmond state secondaries (Christ's, Richard Reynolds, RPA, Greycourt) vs west London independents...advice please!!

[QBean]

DD due to start secondary in 2015. We are sitting on fence as to whether to sit exams for independents (possibly Godolphin, LEH, Putney, KGS, Surbiton) or stay in state sector, but currently tutoring for 11+ to keep options open. Among many other factors to consider, I am anxious about stories you hear about impact on mental health of independents' highly pressurised environment, equally anxious about stories of academic kids at local state schools not with motivated peers, but appreciate this is all gossip. Grateful to hear from parents with kids at above state or independent schools, are you pleased? For those who are/were in same quandry- which route did you go down, are you happy with your choice? Any advice hugely appreciated. Thanks all! (See also thread on local Richmond site, good feedback on RPA but tricky for us to get to, so hoping posting on main site will bring responses about other options too)

[Chocfinger]

Thanks Shooting. My instinct is that my eldest would be happy at a new coed state school near by where she should get a place- although she still wants to apply for LEH, but that my younger DD would be happiest at an all girls school like Godolphin or Putney. That opens up a whole new can of worms though....sigh. One step forward, one step back!

[Shootingatpigeons]

I wouldn't say that LEH type schools would stifle creativity, or indeed sporting prowess, quite the opposite. However the peers your DD finds there might. There are so many talented and competitive pupils that it takes real confidence to hold your own. However if they really do have a talent then it will give them the confidence to do well not just in that area. You really do have to visit to get the feel for where your DD would be happy. It is intangible to the point of irrationality but do trust your instincts.

[Chocfinger]

shooting pigeons you sound very wise about all these schools and your DDs' experiences! I am certainly grateful for your insight particularly as I have two very different DDs who are only academic year apart. One super sporty and a bit of a tom boy, although she does very well in school and is very responsible and capable she would rather be playing sport than just about anything else. The other very academic and hungry for knowledge, not at all keen on sport but would love to be involved in drama and creative writing- although very bright she will not travel in a straight line- she moves to the beat of her own drum so I worry the LEH type schools might stifle that creativity rather than nurture it in their drive for A*.

[Shootingatpigeons]

I have had good and bad experiences at the same school!

I think you have to be very careful about extrapolating specific experiences, good or bad, to the potential experience of your own child. There is a cool crowd in South West London Schools, state and private, they congregate in playgrounds , on the Greens, at house parties allowed by naive parents and there is binge drinking, drugs, sexual antics, exclusive behaviour and a size zero obsession. Individual schools have no control over where they turn up, and every school can have a dysfunctional year. Unfortunately my DD2 was in one. Her older sister had an entirely different experience. I can't even say with any conviction that the school's pastoral frameworks were weaker than any other schools, I obviously think they did not protect my child and her friends sufficiently but the teachers absolutely acknowledged the issues and gave support and discipline ( sometimes in the absence of any at home) and the parents of some of the "strong characters" thought they were treated too harshly . Clarissa Farr the Head at SPGS even in desperation started parenting classes to teach parents to support and place sensible boundaries on their DDs. However with a sufficient critical mass of attention seekers subverting the norms any pastoral framework is going to struggle and I have heard of incidences at all schools. Even at St Catherine's which does offer a strong framework of support and discipline arising from the faith ethos there have been years where exiles from eg Waldegrave whose parents thought they were getting them away from such behaviour bought it with them. The only thing I am sure about is that if your DD's confidence is affected by such a situation get them out of the school ASAP. My DD and her friends did all slowly but surely leave and were transformed at a range of other schools.

And when it does happen it is amplified in girls' schools, the ability to manipulate the norms and seek attention is limited with boys around bringing things down to earth. My older daughter really benefited academically from a single sex environment but it definitely made DD2s social experience worse.

I would also say that a school like St Catherine's is not at an other extreme to LEH in terms of developing your DDs potential, it does enable bright girls to do well, and this first sixth form cohort has at least one going on to do medicine. However it is different, different ethos, facilities etc and what would suit one DD and enable them to thrive does not necessarily suit another. I really do think you and your DD get a feeling about which environment would suit them better if you are not swayed by factors that are not relevant to your child's happiness.

With my first DD she knew exactly where she wanted to go after the interview, though it had not been our initial first choice. My second DD was swayed by sibling rivalry and we ended up holding two offers on the afternoon that acceptances were due in, after spending the night dreaming about it and I wasn't the only parent turning up with that envelope at the very last minute! and the school I dreamt about ended up being the one where she was happy

[Chocfinger]

Also, Icimoi noted about St Catherine's, they have great value added scores. I think all these schools have great end results, but some are less selective than others. As someone mentioned its important not to get the degree of difficulty of the entry process confused with what is the best match for your child

[Chocfinger]

All, what useful insights. My DD is already so tired three weeks into term and although she is quite academic and a real "joiner" I do wonder if she would be overwhelmed by the demands/ schedule of an LEH, Putney etc. I suppose one can't compare pastoral support on a state vs private approach but we are considering nearly all the schools mentioned in this thread- although too far for Greycourt. Every school says they have fab pastoral support and most everyone knows of some poor child with eating disorders at one or another of them. Do any parents have advice on how to judge pastoral support or specific- good or bad- experiences? Thank you.

[Icimoi]

I'm not sure that St Catherine's really is at the opposite end of the spectrum from LEH, at least in terms of results. My DD did very well there, as did a number of her classmates.

[CatherineofMumbles]

Interesting about teachers patrolling the streets. I was startled on Friday morning to see an RPA Head of Dept lurking about on the corner of the one way street linking White Hart Lane and Upper Richmond Road. Seems they are policing the DC on their way to school as well as their way home

[Chocfinger]

lubendi, thank you for your feedback, this is all very useful- such a difficult decision.

[lubendi]

Hi there,
I have two sons at Grey Court and they are both doing fantastically well. i had the choice of Crhists which was closer to home but chose GC because I had a better feeling about it and the Head is awesome and very ambitious. My eldest is currently in year 11 and has great frinds, practices a lot of sports and is in the top set. same for my son in year 8- there friends and really nice and particularly the one in year 11 goes out with children from Grey Court, KGS, Tiffin! Hampton, Latymer, etc. And they are all very gopod friends.
There are plenty of extracurricular activities at Grey Court - and in the borough if the school doesnt provide the specific one -and they have at least one trip per year, I am of the opinion that parents are the ones who provide the major input and for that you have to be able to share time and take them on trips so un,ess money is no issue whatsoever I d rather earn a bit less but have lower expenses and enjoy them( I do work 40 hours a week) but I don t have to pay excruciating fees . I would only choose independent schools if my child had any special needs, that being academic or social and needs the extra attention, if not a comprehensive school will showcase life at is, with a great variety of people and personalities and show them that they have to work if they aim to achieve sth . Hope it helps.

[DarkBlueEyes]

I know I'm late to this thread, but have read it with great interest and very grateful to all the advice posted, as well as being In awe at the depth of knowledge!!! I'm in the same situation as QBean and am particularly interested in looking at how to compare schools. For example I am nearly 100% sure we will try for St Catherines, LEH, Putney and Surbiton. Obviously St C and LEH are at opposite ends of the spectrum and if we are in a position to be able to choose (can't imagine that might happen but you never know!), given they are so different, how on earth do you make that decision? Eek!!!!

[muminlondon]

I'd say they have done well on the Eng/Maths progress measures with those who are not high attainers (and probably the most disadvantaged) - better than the national average (and some other Richmond schools). For high attainers, progress in English in 2013 was slightly lower than the national average - Maths wasn't far off.

I think they are aware of these issues, though. I noticed a 'Leadership edu-blog' on their website (I can't link directly but it's under 'News') - a post from July 2013 entitled 'The most able students' says 'Our current Year 7s and 8s are well on track, at the moment, to make 4 Levels of Progress by the time they reach their GCSEs because of how hard we are pushing them in Key Stage 3.'

[localinfo]

Thanks for that link, muminlondon. It's really interesting and explains why every school seems to do so much less well by their 'low attainers' than by their high or medium attainers - according to these snapshots. However, it also suggests that the three levels of 'expected progress' for high attainers is a comparatively low target which might seem to make the high attainers' progress at this school even more disappointing.

This isn't, as was implied on another thread, negative feedback, as I have no personal experience of the school; it's more an attempt to look behind headline figures which can be very misleading. And the link above shows that the figures behind the headlines can be just as misleading.

School gate feedback is very positive largely, I should say, and I would very much like to see the school become a school of choice for local parents and children.

[muminlondon]

I think it's harder to make that expected progress when you're starting from a lower level - i.e. where there are more lower attainers (level 3 to a D) and 'average' (level 4 SATS to a C grade in GCSE) because the '3 levels of progress' in the Data dashboard is quite a crude measure. For higher attainers there may not be enough stretch if a school only concentrates on this because from level 5 this is only a B. But Ofsted uses more refined figures anyway so it should have been picked up in their latest inspections if this was a big problem.

See here:

www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2014/04/ofsted-2014-dashboard-still-using-the-wrong-data/

[Shootingatpigeons]

The thread is here local.mumsnet.com/Talk/local_richmond_upon_thames/1879125-Richmond-Borough-Schools-Chat-5?msgid=46539096#46539096

[Shootingatpigeons]

If I remember correctly there was a conversation on the thread about the usefulness of those figures in a borough where the Primary Schools are getting pupils to such a high standard that it is harder for the Senior Schools to achieve the expected progress. I may be wrong as it is another poster muminlondon who has a forensic knowledge of all the figures. I will post your comment, as she is always a good source of objective insight.

By the way I am not trumpeting the school as a result of personal loyalty. I am in fact one of those Sheen parents who felt disenfranchised of the option of a state education when as Shene School it was allowed through poor leadership and lack of investment to become a failing school and completely lost the confidence of the local community. As a result I am glad to hear that it now has such inspiring leadership and some very happy parents commenting on the various threads.

[localinfo]

Have a look at the Expected Progress figures in the link posted by antimatter though. 29% of high achievers not making at least expected progress in English, 55% of low attainers not making at least expected progress in maths...www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136208

[Shootingatpigeons]

And if anyone wants forensic dissection of the results of all the Richmond State Schools they can find it on the Schools chat thread in local. I think the general gist on that and other threads on RPA is that RPAs results have improved considerably and it is an improvement with substance not playing the figures, the result of intensive focus on enabling all the pupils to achieve their potential. That improvement is of course with an intake that pre dates the new leadership and investment.

[Shootingatpigeons]

MrsLiz yes RPA was oversubscribed and reportedly not only did applications go up by 46% but the number applying from local schools went up by an even greater margin. It seems as if finally all the positive word of mouth is translated into increased popularity. They have over offered places by quite a margin. Some crunched numbers here. www.richmondinclusiveschools.org.uk/files/view/useful-data/2014SecondaryOffers.pdf

[One4TheRd]

local.mumsnet.com/Talk/local_richmond_upon_thames/1867675-RPA-or-Christs

Not sure if this will work as a link, but it's a good thread on mumsnet local Richmond about some of the schools, RPA in particular!

[antimatter]

here it is: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/a1784040-Harris-Academy

and data for Richmond Academy:
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136208

[antimatter]

my kids are 14 and 16
through time of having them in secondary school I realised that you should look at not A-C total, but the break down.
Also - does the school offer separate Physics at GCSE.
How many kids take Art and Music gives understanding of priorities chosen by school re: gcse coverage (both subject not soft at all).

I also second VA stats and understanding of different ways schools manipulate system during application process. I am going to try to find thread on MN from few months ago how it is done in some Academies.

[localinfo]

Also useful to check out the Ofsted dashboard so you can see how the school compares to all and similar schools: dashboard.ofsted.gov.uk/dash.php?urn=136208 and the school Value Add figure: www.foxtons.co.uk/education/richmond-upon-thames/secondary/richmond-park-academy.html. Note that a Value Add score of 1000 is neutral ie the school is not adding value but children are making expected progress, a Value Add score above 1000 is positive ie the children are making better than expected progress and a Value Add score below 1000 means that the children are making less than expected progress.

[TheLateMrsLizCromwell]

antimatter completely agree ( and also if you are buying a house or flat similar principle applies )

[antimatter]

if you want to know much about state school go and park your car near the entrance just before the end of school day o couple of days

watch for the behaviour of the kids
do they have teachers having to control them at the bus stops and outside of the entrance, and/or police presence
are they getting out of the school and are loud and etc