School trip for G&T kids. I don't approve, but not sure what to do.

[PigOnRollerskates]

In the next 3 weeks DD (Y7) is going on 3 school trips. One is for whole year group to local big museum. Fine.

One is to panto for kids who have got the most reward slips. Again fine, although tough on those who just missed out. (she might miss out yet - she's making the cut at the moment but still 2 weeks to go)

Third is for kids identified as G&T. It's to another museum and is directly linked to the big humanities project that the whole year group are working on.

I have a real problem with this. Letters were publicly handed out in tutor groups to make it clear to all who weren't invited that it was because they weren't clever enough. DD and one of her best friends got a letter, their other best friend didn't. They are all in the same sets and have the same targets, so clearly it was a close call and based (I guess) on friend 3 getting slightly lower CAT scores.

Also of the kids I know who are going, they are all from families who take their kids to these museums anyway, and have tons of opportunities. The kids I know whose parents struggle financially or don't place much emphasis on these types of activities are not in the group (obviously this is not a co-incidence)

This is a mid-performing comprehensive school. I understand that DD is in the top 10% of this school, but probably wouldn't be in a more selective school or in another catchment area. I'm all for differentiation and making sure the brighter kids are getting stretched and reaching their potential, but special trips for G&T make me feel very uncomfortable.

DD agrees, and said she felt very awkward when the letters were handed out. She wants to go though, and I don't want to ban her from going based on my principles.

Does anyone have any experience of this? Would you raise it with the school? Is this a common thing now or OFSTED requirement?

I know the bottom 10% get extra funding and help, but what about the 80% in the middle? Is their education considered unimportant?

Sorry - rant over!

[Gileswithachainsaw]

So it has to be boring and pointless then? Gees. Some kids enjoy school and learning it doesn't mean schools a treat

[PigOnRollerskates]

Titchy I take your point that the teachers haven't planned it as a treat. And I do agree with your point about comprehensive education catering for all. In fact I'm going to use your argument to rationalise my decision and make me feel less uncomfortable, so thank you!

As for whether it's a treat though, DD definitely thinks it is. So do her friends - both those who are going and those who aren't. It's a day out to a fun museum on a coach rather than the usual day in the classroom, including a double PE lesson where they're doing Rugby in the mud! Her friend who isn't going is actually getting much better marks in humanities than DD because she's much better at writing and presenting. DD isn't very strong on extended writing.

This thread has been really useful so thanks to everyone who's posted. I wasn't clear in my mind before why it sat so uncomfortably with me. Having read all the responses I would say I'm now much clearer that I am not opposed to G&T trips out. I've never been opposed to G&T differentiation and extra activities. I just think this one has been applied poorly and not explained, but I'll let her go (I was always going to anyway) and not say anything, and wait to see what the trip actually entails.

[titchy]

Some will some won't.

The fact that some will enjoy it doesn't negate the fact that the trip's primary purpose is to academically stretch the more able, rather than treat treat the more able.

Do you remove something from the curriculum because some kids might enjoy it?

at chosen one's children though!

(My non G & T dc missed out on a Harry Potter World G & T trip - are you in Surrey?)

[PigOnRollerskates]

Harry Potter World? My DD would hate that! She's terrified of HP and only made it half way through the second book!

Her trip to the International Slavery Museum will be much less disturbing!

[choccyp1g]

titchy Yes I am in Surrey, does the date 1215 mean anything to you?

[titchy]

Choccy - no we're a different part of Surrey!

[noblegiraffe]

The top ten percent lose out in terms of teacher attention, IMO. At my school, top set maths has 32+ kids in it. Bottom set on the other hand has 15 with TA support, middling sets have high twenties. Basically, if they're bright, there is a bit of an expectation that they can cope in large classes and teach themselves.

Imagine a top set with 15 and support in it. How much more could they achieve?

Obviously it is right and proper that those are struggling get the most support to achieve the basics they will need for a productive life. But I can't get too worked up about the top ten percent being thrown a bone here, even if from the outside it looks like a poor fit. Presumably the teachers organising it have made a case for it and had it signed off, they don't let teachers off timetable and out on trips for no good reason.

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

To those that say they think this is not an extra treat-it is surely what the kids think that matters, G and T kids and all others.

It is often quite difficult to identify true giftedness and talent and it varies from school to school. Children who are able should be supported,challenged and stretched but the fact remains perceived ability in many identified children is often as much to do with existing social advantage than inherent ability

I don't agree that those with high ability lose out on teacher attention, it is very rewarding and exciting to teach such children and they demand attention by virtue of their ability.

In this case the school could find other ways to extend learning.

[curlew]

"The top ten percent lose out in terms of teacher attention, IMO. At my school, top set maths has 32+ kids in it. Bottom set on the other hand has 15 with TA support, middling sets have high twenties. Basically, if they're bright, there is a bit of an expectation that they can cope in large classes and teach themselves."
Just because you're in a large class doesn't mean you teach yourself. But anyway. That inverted pyramid system is the way my dd's (selective) school got 100% A* or A. She was in set 5 of 7 with about 10 others, and got her A. So did the girls in set 7!

[lljkk]

Special trips for G+T Don't happen at our schools (3 schools to speak of).
I wouldn't care if it did. So I wouldn't do anything.

DS-y9 usually qualifies for end-of-term-reward-trip-based-on-decent-behaviour but refuses because he doesn't fancy it.
DS-yr1 is nice & hard working but dim. He works hard because he likes to, long may that last.

[DumSpiroSpero]

Why should the top 10% get more taxpayer money spent on them?

Have you seen your school's budget? Because I'd be amazed if that was happening.

At DD's primary (560 pupils) the budget for G & T extension is £1000 per annum. Our LEA no longer provide extension sessions - it has been contracted out to a private company with which the school could barely afford to register, let alone purchase enough 'credits' to actually purchase course places.

I would be a bit about the fact the trip is relevant to a subject being studied by the whole year though.

[PiqueABoo]

Applefallingfromthetree2: "I don't agree that those with high ability lose out on teacher attention"
--

Based on what experience? It's not mine. It's not those teachers Sutton Trust quoted in their report last year. It's clearly not @noblegiraffe's.

[curlew]

Both of my children are very able in some areas. I don't want them to be completely abandoned by their teachers, obviously, but I am quite happy for them to be aimed at a target and left to get on with it in a spirit of watchful benign neglect, while the teachers get on with supporting the ones who can't do stuff on their own and really need loads of teacher input.

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

We should not underestimate how very able children make the most of teachers as a resource and a facilitator, along with everything else at their disposal. Posters seem to be focussing on numbers in the class and TA support. Gifted children rarely benefit from the latter and are adept at probing and questioning. They are able to gain from learning and interacting with others of ability including their peers.

It's not so much about these children teaching themselves but their ability to learn given the right environment. More teaching for this group does not necessarily lead to greater outcomes, the approach to how they are taught does