What happens if they get excluded?

[Minifingers]

DD in year 10. Had a call from HOY this week and apparently dd is now on a 'time line' where they are noting down all misdemeanours. All of them. I can only assume they are collecting evidence to support excluding her if her shit behaviour continues. She has already been on internal exclusion this term, and apparently her behaviour since returning to the classroom has been poor. The HOY did make noises on the phone to me this evening about dd being permanently excluded.

What happens if this takes place? Will she be offered a place at any other school in the borough which is willing to take her? A pupil referral unit? What's the normal protocol.

Feel like we're standing on the edge of a precipice here. Will be gutted if dd has to leave the school as it's a very decent place which has done its best to support her. Sad that she's given so little back and seems hell-bent on destruction. :-(

[Minifingers]

"other than to suggest that not all mixed schools are rife with sexual harassment (I doubt any are free of it either, sadly)"

Unfortunately we live in a part of inner London where gang culture is endemic, and the least popular schools (which is probably where she will be heading) have a significant problem with harassment of girls as well as violent behaviour outside school.

"because you never had the chance to let out your (justifiable) anger at the parents of the girls who actually did this to your daughter?"

How do you know that anger at the parents of the disruptive children Married refers to is 'justifiable'? She probably has no idea at all of what the parents of these girls felt about what was going on at school, because I doubt she ever met them or had a conversation with them. I suspect they were like most parents, that they were desperate for their children to achieve, and struggling to know how to address bad behaviour that takes place outside the home, (or inside for that matter).

Some very helpful ideas here by the way - I will re-read them before my meeting with the HOY tonight so I know what questions to ask.

She has been referred to what the school call a 'step by step' programme within school, and offered additional support with behaviour, but she seems to have an agenda of her own which none of us can understand.

The thing which is puzzling everyone and making her behaviour especially hard to know how to address is that she is not difficult across the board. She is popular with other children, gets on with almost everyone at school, has good relationships with some of her teachers and is often described as 'well liked'. She has no identifiable mental health problems or diagnosed learning difficulties, there is no history or presence of bullying, she has all our support. She is not depressed, as far as we are aware (and she has been seen by a consultant psychiatrist. The school are at a loss of how to deal with her.

[ImTooHecsyForYourParty]

Really? That's what you decided to pick from my post? Not the fact that I think she is unfairly having a go at you? Not the fact that I think she is transfering her anger at her situation onto you? Not the fact that I said your daughter did nothing to hers and you did nothing to her? Not the fact that I said she was being unfair to you?

Fine.

As far as I understand it, one of the meanings of justifiable is with good reason. Another is understandable. Another is excusable. Another is pardonable. An emotion that is acceptable because there is good reason for it is yet one more.

She is angry with good reason. Her daughter has been seriously emotionally hurt. It is understandable that she is angry about that. It is understandable that she has anger towards those girls and their parents. Her anger towards them is justifiable. Understandable. you can be justifiably angry at the hurt and damage done to your child and understandably angry with those you hold responsible.

[IShouldNotBeHere]

Marriedinwhite.

The problems your daughter had sound awful, but seem really disproportionate to what you say is the cause. I can imagine that bullying could trigger off those things, but disruption? Really? She would have to be an extremely and unusually sensitive child to be affected so seriously by disruption. Are you sure that your not looking for something to blame it on and have latched onto that?

Sorry if I've missed something.

[IShouldNotBeHere]

Op. So its just certain classes? Is there a pattern? So the ones she is bored in/not being stretched in, or the ones she finds difficult?

[Madamecastafiore]

If she were mine I would either come down on her like a tonne of bricks or completely disengage.

What do you actually say to her when she says the teachers are incompetent?

Are you taking away her phone and doing other things to punish her behaviour at school?

[Bemused33]

It sounds like a terrible time. As an adult dealing with the stresses of secondary school it has regurgitated memories for me. Especially regarding one girl who was disruptive and particularly nasty to be honest. In the harsh light of adulthood I have wondered what led her to be that way. Has something happened to her in or out of school that she is and has not dealt with. Have you broached this with her? Would it be worth trying to get her someone she can talk to confidentialy who she can share with., I hope you get it sorted x if its any help my niece went off the rails but is now a happily married mum of one x

[Kenlee]

I think a solution would be to let her work in a menial job. WaShing up in a restaurant. i know she is below age but its a very good remainder of what she will be if she doesn't knuckle down at school.

Im not sure it will work but it was a very good incentive for me to keep my nose clean and my powder dry.


Please dont all go off on married as she is only putting a point forward. Its not helpful...The thread is about try to help OP with suggestions.

[titchy]

No advice I'm afraid, but above all please do remember that decisions and actions made at the age of 14 or 15 very rarely have a life-long effect on someone.

There are always ways and means, and even if she does end up in a PRU without a GCSE to her name, all is not lost. She can return to education easily enough as an adult, the opportunities to do so in London are huge, as are work experience opportunities while she finds her feet.

It's very difficult as a parent on a teen to imagine the current self-destructive path can ever have a good outcome, but given a bit of growing up, most teens end up as reasonably well balanced 20 year olds, more able to face their futures and do something about them.

Just remember that - the next couple of years does NOT indicate the next 20!

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Have you tried specialist Adolescent counseling OP?

[AmyMumsnet]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your reports.

We understand that some of the threads on Mumsnet can get very emotive - particularly when they involve DCs. However, we'd appreciate it if you could bear that MN is a site for support as well as debate. Here's a reminder of our talk guidelines

[mummytime]

I would suggest two things: first a referral to CAMHS or other youth counselling. I wonder if your DD really knows what she thinks or feels. There may even be an undiagnosed SN/SEN.

The other is to consider HE, maybe using something like InterHigh (which it is possible to get the LA to pay for if a pupil is in danger of exclusion).

[tethersend]

Minifingers, I hope you don't mind me linking to your other thread in Chat... here.

It gives some more information as to which avenues of support have already been tried.

[Madamecastafiore]

Sounds more behavioural than MH issue - Your best bet is contacting CAMHS and asking them about parenting groups that you could attend but I doubt from what you are saying on here she fulfils the criteria for a referral.

What have you tried to tried to get her to take responsibility for her behaviour?

[Madamecastafiore]

I would never have disrupted her education in the first place if I hadn't also been very dissatisfied with the school's response to dd failing to complete any work in class or at home for over a year?????

What was their response?

What was your response?

[Madamecastafiore]

Well after reading your previous thread I'd completely disengage.

Tell her to do whatever she wants but will get no financial support from you or your family and no support in terms of day to day living.

Tell her that there are consequences and those are hers - if she wants to fuck her life up she can go right ahead but you are past caring and need to get on with your life without having to deal with the day to day drama which she is inflicting on the rest of you.

Go and get some counselling for you and your family without her to deal with feelings of failure and what to do if she starts to reach out to you but really I think it gets to the stage where you are just constantly bashing your head against the wall whilst the child goes on merrily doing what they want to do.

[ImATotJeSuisUneTot]

If she does end up in a PRU, or other alternative provision, its not the end of the world. Really, some children thrive outside of the structure and boundaries of a normal curriculum and school.

Does your borough offer short PRU placements? Sometimes we take students on a fixed term, and sometimes part-time.

[BrianTheMole]

Its true that what happens at 14 or 15 isn't a reflection on what will happen later on in life. I was quite similar to your dd, a combination of hormones, and a desire to see how far I could challenge authority. They chucked me out in the end. But after a few years of realising I had fucked up, I went back and did my A levels and went on to uni. And I have a pretty responsible job now. This doesn't spell the end for your dd. fwiw I was so angry that my mother supported the school for chucking me out, but in retrospect if she had managed to get them to keep me, my behaviour wouldn't have improved. Hell bent on destruction, sometimes its important to see the results of that before being able to make personal changes.

[friday16]

OP, you mentioned in response to one comment that you have a son who is autistic and can be disruptive. Has there been any suggestion that your daughter feels that he's getting more attention, and it is disruptive behaviour that gets him it? Pop psychology, and I'm sure explored in family therapy, I realise.

[slug]

Having read the other thread I've only 2 things to say

1. Don't underestimate the PRU. I've taught many children who were in PRUs and they have been without exception, joys to teach. I don't know how they do it but I have nothing but the utmost respect for them.

1. Marriedinwhite has made some perfectly valid points. This is a teenager who knows perfectly well that her behaviour is unacceptable, not some primary school child with an undiagnosed issue. You've been through the CAMHS and psychiatrist route. Now is the time to let the other children thrive without the class drama queen taking all the attention. Schools are incredibly tolerant of the sorts of behaviours that are not accepted in the outside world. If she seems so hell bent on living life to her own script, then perhaps now is the time to let her see the consequences before she decides to take exception to a police officer, kicks off, and ends up with a custodial sentence or a criminal record.

[Minifingers]

Thank you those of you who are reminding me about second chances - of course this is true, and I will try to keep it in mind.


"If the behaviour is only bad in some lessons, is there an underlying cause perhaps? Either in terms of disliking those subjects"

She is worst in lessons she finds difficult - finds difficult because she hasn't done the work, not because she finds them intrinsically difficult. So that's maths primarily, science and languages. Subjects where her native wit can carry her through - English, drama, sociology - not a problem (although she still won't do homework). She seems to cope very badly with having to try at anything which involves any sort of prolonged or difficult tasks, or anything she can't do easily. She has a massive failure of gumption.

It has got me thinking in the past about ADD, but I presume that this would have been considered by the psychiatrist. Also wonder why it wouldn't have manifested itself in primary. She's spectacularly disorganised, but on the rare occasion she does any work her presentation is beautiful. In maths (when she can be arsed) her working is really excellent - logically and consistently set out in a way that I certainly never managed as a child. Surely this wouldn't be there in the work of a child with ADD?

"OP, you mentioned in response to one comment that you have a son who is autistic and can be disruptive. Has there been any suggestion that your daughter feels that he's getting more attention, and it is disruptive behaviour that gets him it?"

She is jealous of her brother because I am close to him. This is an issue for her, but just one of her issues. He's a good kid.


"Tell her to do whatever she wants but will get no financial support from you or your family and no support in terms of day to day living."

Legally we are required to support her and keep her in school until she is 18. School leaving age goes up to 17 in 2014, and 18 the year after (I think). So we can't disengage completely.


"The other is to consider HE, maybe using something like InterHigh"

When we first took her out of school the plan was to home school her for a while while we looked around for another school. She basically refused to do anything other than watch tv, play games online, or lie in bed (if I denied access to tv and internet) with a pillow over her head. I nearly had a breakdown as I had the local authority on my back asking to see evidence of what we were doing at home. Hence signing her up with a tutorial centre, where she at least engaged with the teachers. I would have been quite happy to have allowed her to do any subjects she wanted at home, create her own projects, follow her own interests. Except she hasn't got any interests other than Facebook, watching TV and fiddling with her hair and nails.


"Have you tried specialist Adolescent counseling OP?"

No. How would I access this?


"I think a solution would be to let her work in a menial job"

If I could let her leave home and work as a chambermaid for a year, believe me, I'd jump at the chance. It was what I did at 17 after dropping out of my A-levels, and it totally pressed the 'reset' button on my attitude to education..... But she is 14. Nobody would have her. And she wouldn't agree to go.


"If she were mine I would either come down on her like a tonne of bricks or completely disengage"

We've had 2 years of this behaviour now, and I have done both of these things, fruitlessly, at different times.... If we come down hard on her she ramps up the aggression and the defiance to a point where it becomes dangerous for everyone in the house. If we disengage she creates situations (like now) where it becomes impossible for us to maintain this disengagement. Like staying out late and not telling us where she is, walking out the house in the middle of the night after a row, playing loud music at midnight on a school night, refusing to go in to school. It's honestly impossible to deal with. You can't disengage when your child is regularly school refusing or putting themselves in danger.

"What do you actually say to her when she says the teachers are incompetent?"

I point out that good behaviour and co-operation is even more vital in lessons where the teacher is struggling, as the learning still has to be done! That she owes it to herself and the other children not to take advantage of weak teachers by creating conflict, and that it's cruel and self-defeating to target teachers who may be finding their work more than they can manage.

[Minifingers]

slug - it's lovely to hear you say that you have found children in PRU's 'a joy to teach'. I'm sure you would say that of my dd, if you were working with her one to one. I have never had a teacher who has had close contact working with her outside of a classroom situation who hasn't found her charming and very bright.

[friday16]

Legally we are required to support her and keep her in school until she is 18. School leaving age goes up to 17 in 2014, and 18 the year after (I think).

You aren't required to support her, and you aren't required to keep her in school. The school leaving age is not rising. All that is changing is that people aged 16, then 17 have to either be in school, or in a job which has a training element, or in some other approved scheme. Where that is, and how they are financed, is an entirely different matter. She can still claim benefits from 16, and you are not responsible for housing or feeding her, and you are certainly not responsible for ensuring she is in school (or whatever). It is not as yet at all clear what, if any, enforcement there is going to be of this rather ill thought-out scheme, but it is absolutely not an extension of the existing model of parents being responsible past 16.