Tiffin Girls School "designated area"

[Muminwestlondon]

West or South West London parents might be interested to learn that TGS is currently consulting on a "designated area" to cut down on the nearly 2000 applications they had this year. If accepted the change would apply from 2014/15. The details are on the school website, but the postcodes are...

KT1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 19
TW1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16
SW13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20
W4, 5, 7, 13
UB1, 2
SM4
CR4

[zoffany51]

girls + boys testing and admissions criteria should be aligned as these schools, co-founded are now imposing gender inequality; imo TGS have got it (broadly speaking) right, whereas the boys school (typical) lags behind. if the two schools operated the same our DS2 would be going to grammar school Sept. 2013. as it is he will go to the local comp. discriminated against based not on ability but gender. maybe the girls school should take an even more avante garde approach and start to admit boys - there are plenty of able candidates out there!

[Phoebe47]

I agree zoffany51 - well said.

[zoffany51]

! about time... i applaud The Tiffin Girls School for taking this approach; 'tis a gr8 shame Tiffin School have not followed their lead, but instead have opted to stick doggedly with nvr/vr open admission. Catchment with these postcodes as a 'designated area' is still wide enough imo.

[lalalonglegs]

I'm relieved my postcode isn't in it - my daughter could, with a fair wind behind her, sit the test but I don't want her to go there. However, the pressure in a couple of years' time to put her forward will be enormous.

I have a feeling that a lot of the people near me (Clapham/Battersea) will be campaigning to have more SW postcodes included and, to be fair, if you have easy access to Clapham Jcn then it's not a dreadful journey.

[Muminwestlondon]

OhDearConfused, excellent point about only 16% of potential applicants being excluded. I think I will suggest they save resources by testing 800 in the first round and pick them by lottery from all applicants

[OhDearConfused]

JoanByers - sounds good in theory. But wouldn't it work like this:

1. Not so bright kids get parental/tutor help on the pre-test, hoping to have a lucky day on the day itself (and hoping - but vainly of course - that not many kids think of the same trick so mark stays lower).
   

1. Even those kids that would likely be above the cut-off for entry get parental/tutor help because of the kids in 1 and they need to make the cut for the real test?

[EweBrokeMyManger]

Interesting that only SM4 is present - there is going to be hard and fast boundary in Worcester Park/North Cheam.

[OhDearConfused]

It seems that out of the 120 who entered in Sept 2012, 19 (16%) would not have been eligible (ie not in the postcodes listed).

Thus, this is hardly going to make much difference to the madness of 2000 taking the test. Even if the 2000 were spread in the same manner (ie an even spread of abilities), then it would only go down to 1680 applicants!

Still going to be a logistical nightmare for the school. And more likely the further away you go the less likely you are to want to apply (ie less than 320 applying for those 19 places - just keener/better. IYSWIM).

I guess they have their reasons and its a start....

Will the boys follow suit?

[CecilyP]

They can still do this with the Greenwich Ruling as they have not just used Kingston-upon-Thames postcodes. I agree that it seems reasonable and the postcodes used cover a wide area of an almost circle and the radius is pretty wide - W3 appears to be the only real anomaly, being a definite break in the circle.

[JoanByers]

The point of the online test is that it's a pre-test. It just gets you into consideration. Cheating wouldn't get you into school, just get you to sit a second test of a similar nature. So there wouldn't be much point in cheating.

[Muminwestlondon]

I think the online test is a good idea but cheating would be rife, not just from tutors but from siblings/parents and a lot would take the chance as the stakes are so high. The children currently have to submit a picture of themselves with the application which presumably is to avoid impersonation (I believe that actually happened in Redbridge).

Specifying postcodes is still legal as I have seen that other schools do it. It is also legal to say that preference will be given to children that attend a primary school in a certain borough, or even feeder schools.

Aside from a lottery to pick out say 600 or so to go through to the second round, the more I think about it there isn't a fair way and I wonder if the "designated area" idea is the best way forward after all?

[Needmoresleep]

Cant they do what SPGS does. Computerised pre-test?

Each candidate has a specific log in and, say 40 mins. One or two might have tutors standing over them but those kids would be found out at a later stage.

If journey time cannot be used it would seem better than simply denying some because of their post-code and running the risk that the ethnic mix becomes less diverse, and rules out, say new migrant groups like Latin Americans, Portuguese, or West Africans who have a big presence near Waterloo/Victoria in favour of groups living an equal journey time away but in longer established communities.

[EweBrokeMyManger]

But can they do this with the Greenwich judgement

[Muminwestlondon]

Yes I agree, that is exactly our position. However if 2000 apply the school has to test them all and that is clearly unsustainable. It was around 1000 when DD applied.

[Needmoresleep]

It sounds a pity if they are choosing to use post codes of current pupils. This will simply sustain current demographics.

Tiffin is accessible from central London south of the river. Not many will apply. However it is an important option for bright inner city kids with motivated parents. To rule them out simply because they have not historically come in their droves unlike kids from some of the other, and less accessible, postcodes seems unfair.

[Muminwestlondon]

They used those postcodes because they say that is where the majority of those currently in the school live. W3 applicants either don't apply or don't get in for some reason.

Apparently 16% of year 7 starting in September 2012 were outside the proposed designated area (at the time of being offered a place).

Unfortunately the school now has so many applicants (over 1800) that the current system is unmanageable and apparently expensive.

I also think travelling time by public transport would be fairer but apparently this has been ruled against by the Schools Adjudicator in relation to another school (Cardinal Vaughan).

[CecilyP]

I don't think so, gazzalw. It looks like they drew a circle round the school and took in all the relevant postcodes - all except W3 which sits slap bang in the middle of W4 and W5, whereas SW16 is right outside the circle.

The 90 minutes journey thing is a total red herring. Only 19 minutes from Clapham Junction (SW11) to Kingston station and perhaps a 15 minute walk from there.

[gazzalw]

Or the cynic might wonder if they're using postcodes to weed out certain demographics.......

[gatheringlilac]

... or perhaps it's that the ratio of cost of processing applications from, say, SW16 and W3 to number of applications from those postcodes being successful was way less good than the ration of cost to pass rate from, say, CR4? Perhaps SW16 is excluded because their success rate wasn't glorious enough?

(I'm joking: I think it was probably just a case of a ruthless sweep of the marker pen.)

[gatheringlilac]

Hmm. Latymer in Edmonton uses a TfL journey-planner thingy to insist that only children whose journeys take under an hour can apply. you have to affix the TfL print-out to the application. Seems less arbitrary than this list of post-codes ... unless the point is quite simply to just lop off a tranche of applications any old how.

[JoanByers]

SW11 is around 40 minutes door-to-door, and absent too....

[basildonbond]

Sw16 is also absent and that's well within the 90 minute radius ... I wouldn't consider it for dd as I still think its too far but .....

[CecilyP]

The catchment looks huge, stretching from Southall to Mitcham, so don't know how many applicants form outwith they have at present. Looking at the map, I have to agree that W3 seems a strange omission.

[gazzalw]

Hi Gatheringlilac (waves) - we've scraped in postcode-wise but not sure if we would be looking at Tiffin for DD just as we ruled out Tiffin for DS!

[gatheringlilac]

We are "not on the list" but it is well under an hour, even in heavy traffic, to reach the school from where we are.