South West London Secondary Schools, I am stumped.

[QuintessentialShadows]

My mind is spinning with the schools "of choice", and I am hoping somebody with actual knowledge will tell me a little bit:

St Celia
Ashcroft Technology College
John Bosco College

Christs

Gunnersbury Catholic school for boys

Wimbledon College

Kingston Grammar
Ibstock Place
Emanuel School
Kings College Wimbledon

I have a spread sheet, and I am trying to jot down important info, and plan visits. But I just feel that my mind has frozen, and I reach for coffee and chocolate, and neither help....

[Copthallresident]

westendgirl Christs isn't oversubscribed on first preference, and with the links removed and RPAs improved results (primary schools that sent a minimum number of pupils to a particular secondary school used to be deemed to have a link which gave priority over those applying on distance to all their pupils for that school, the idea was that it created close relationships and a through train from primary to secondary but ended up being unfair to pupils at schools who for one reason or another eg Catholic schools sent pupils to diverse schools and could never muster the minimum for a link )it is possible they will get fewer first preference applicants. Christ was often the best option for pupils at schools which didn't have links but many of them will have other schools as an option now that admission is purely on distance. They are also expanding the intake by 1 class in 2013, 120 to 150. There are also a certain number of places for which Catholics get preference, not sure on the criteria. I am sure the Head will fill prospective parents in on the tactics necessary to ensure you get a place at the Open Day but I don't think OP would face the same uncertainty as parents applying to the highly oversubscribed schools in the west of the borough.

[SonorousBip]

QS, I think there is such a wide spread over what you are looking at, you need to work out what your "ground rules" are. The difference between St John Bosco (I did not know JPII had renamed, so there you go) and KCS is a whole lot more than a mile and a half.

I would be saying - what do i want for my son - what type of education, what type of cohort, what can he do, what can't he do. Do I want a school that all my dc can get into, is mixed/single sex important to me, is faith school important to me, how far am I prepared for him to travel, what is important to him etc. Of course, you compromise on some or all of these things, but rather like looking for a house, you need to have an outline idea of whether a garden/second bedroom/parking is important to you or not.

RE KCS - if you are looking at it, its open day is tomorrow: and that they only take between 13-15 boys at 11+.

[greengrape]

copthallresident is right in thinking you have a chance at Christ's but it is still oversubscribed - 110 first choice applications for 120 places but that's out of 512 in total. It would be more correct to say it's undersubscribed on 'faith' criteria but oversubscribed on community places. And some of those listing it as second choice may have been Waldegrave or Tiffin hopefuls. It actually got second highest GCSE results in the borough for its 2012 results, 69% including English and Maths.

For your year, admssion patterns are going to shift . There were fewer going to private schools from Marshgate last year and with better options, that trend will continue. Grey Court in Ham is shooting up in popularity as well as its results (nearly the same as Christ's for 5 A-C inc. eng&maths GCSEs but better for 2012 Ebac scores) but you might be too far away.

I think it will become a lot easier to choose once you have gone to a few open days. I used to list 'pros' and 'cons' on spreadsheets but I've later regretted decisions where I'd tried to use logic rather than gut instinct. And make sure you visit the school during the working day and can see what the pupils are like, and how the teachers talk to them.

[castlesintheair]

Definitely go and see RPA. I would have put it as my 1st choice for DS if it was in 2 years time. I will email/PM you - it's been ages and would be great to catch up.

greengrape, I would say that a good half of the current year 6 at Marshgate will list Tiffin/Waldegrave as their 1st choice, Christ's as 2nd

[greengrape]

Quintessential actually you might not have a chance of Christ's if you're in Wandsworth unless you are going for a faith place (i.e. church attendance) - you see from Richmond's secondary admissions brochure that the cut-off distance was 4045m for the foundation places and 2594m for the community places. They only offered 3 places last year to Wandsworth pupils and none the previous year.

RPA looking interesting though - as others have said, it's improved so rapidly in two years it's got to be down to teaching and good management, not just relying on intake.

[marriedinwhite]

Lisaletta I am going to reply to your earlier post. I am sorry if you find my earlier posts upsetting but they were honest and based on our own experience. I don't think SW London can be compared to the rest of the UK and I suspect that far more than 10% of children (not kids note - as you so disparagingly refer to young adults) go to schools in the independent/selective sector in this area. The reason I think is because the non selective comps are spectacularly poor and need to improve as a matter of urgency. If they do not improve then you really cannot lambast any parent who goes to whatever lengths they can to ensure their children don't attend them.

It is also true to say that in the catchment of St Cecilia's many of the "middle class/professional" parents to whom you refer live in properties, admittedly small terraces and not posh at all, worth more than £750,000. If those parents are as middle class as you infer, if they are both working, (and many of the mothers won't or can't in spite of their naice university educations) they do have significant choices. They have expensive houses with huge equity that could be sold; they could move 10 miles down the line and free sufficient capital to pay for an independent education; they could go to work instead of sitting on the PTAs, and sharing their liberal opinions, (if this was aibu I would say ramming their political views down everyone else's throat from the moral high ground) and that is putting it mildly.

Further if only 10% are independently/selectively educated then I don't really think you can legitimately refer to educational segregation. Your views appear to be very political and if you are a SW London middle class parent with huge equity in your home and a professional background then I am very sad that you are happy to sacrifice the education of your children for your clearly superior political views that are far more important than your children or the opinion of anybody who begs to differ with you. No doubt if your children are at St Cecilia's they went to a nice leafy church primary school. Actually if you really want to be taken seriously they should not have done so and if your views re education are to be taken seriously then I would venture to suggest that you should have sent your children to a non church secondary school but I suspect that might have been beyond the pale for you. What you have chosen is beyond the pale for others. If you think it is a benefit for children to mix with those less fortunate then I hope you can also accept that it is also a benefit for them to mix with those who are more fortunate.

Not everyone will agree with you; you do not have to agree with anyone else but you do have to respect the opinons of others and accept they may be as valid as your own.

Finally, you made a lot of assumptions having read my post so please don't get too offended if you feel I have now made a lot of assumptions about you. I'm afraid it works both ways.

[QuintessentialShadows]

As an aside, nobody from any of the Sheen state primaries got into Tiffin last year, I heard. Tiffin also made changed to their admissions and exam policies. They had their open day at the beginning of July, also have also closed registration for the 2013 intake. The exam is already on the 27th. So Tiffin is not an option for us.

[greengrape]

the non selective comps are spectacularly poor - maybe in Wandsworth? but no longer true of Richmond borough where the majority of state secondaries are now good. Three schools have improved massively through inspirational leadership, and lots of money has been poured into rebuilding two other academies. New sixth forms will make a big difference.

All of that is a relief to me, because I could not afford private school fees. I completely understand, however, that choice varies a lot from one area to another.

[marriedinwhite]

Well, in Wandsworth they remain spectacularly poor in my opinion. When we looked in 2008 no Wandsworth comp, apart from the top set at Graveney, which my child would not have been selected for offered: three sepatate sciences, two modern mfls at year 7, a classical language or three separate sciences, ie, none of the were operating as a comprehensive and none were offering an education rather than the opportunity to acquire mediocre qualifications. And there is a vast difference in my opinion between being well qualified and well educated and that should be what defines education. They were all operating in accordance with the old secondary modern model. We completed a state application form. It included one school in Westminster, one school in Hammersmith & Fulham and one school in Merton. There was only one school in Wandsworth we thought merited a visit and on the basis of the information provided and the examples it set in relation to pastoral care on the open day we were unable to include it. It is an absolute disgrace and absolutely nothing for the "Jewel in the Crown" to be proud of and I say that as a fully paid up member of the Conservative Party and a very strong supporter or Wandsworth Borough Council.

[Copthallresident]

Quintessential If you do settle on Christs, or any other Richmond school, I really recommend you attend the talks that the Education Department will be giving to your school in the coming weeks. There is huge uncertainty as a result of the changes in admissions criteria and it is all very political as a result of the controversy over the proposed Catholic School . They have posted maps online that show how the catchments would have worked if applications in 2012 had been based on distance but they don't take account of all the people who would have applied if they had had a chance on distance. And they are in contrast to the much smaller catchments they predicted when they consulted on the effect of removing the links . Christ is particularly affected. My experience is that when you talk to them as a prospective parent they are very open about advisng the best way to play it. I just hope that the politicians haven't got to them like they have in relation to gcses

[marriedinwhite]

And I have shared the above view to both the leader of the Council and the Chair of the Education Committee. Regrettably comments have not been taken on board.

[QuintessentialShadows]

We are going to the KCS open morning, but I fear with less than 20 successful applicants, they can, and most likely will choose the creme de la creme, and that, to be honest, is not us....

I am not sure that I will even include Christ on my application, but try clam in as many Catholic schools as possible, and include Ashcroft down the bottom. I am going to the Education meeting in October.

Hamptons say that they will assume that the child has read a great number of books by certain authors they list, as a basis for the reading comprehension and piece of creative writing. My son have not read any of these books, owing to having lived in Norway for 3 years, so I think registering him for Hamptons is waste of money, postage stamps and time.

I had not thought about St Benedict, but will investigate further.

The thing about Gunnersbury, and all the Catholic schools is that they are very strict on the "baptism within 6 months criteria". Our son was not baptized within this time limit. My father was recovering from a stroke, and we needed to arrange a baptism in Norway, when living in England, and ensure there were disabled access (which the local Catholic church did not have - so he was baptized in a carmelite convent) It was important for me that my dad was there. We did have the Pater of the Church read a special blessing over him, for children that could not be baptized yet for whatever reason. Not sure they will take surrounding issues such as this into consideration at all.

[greengrape]

marriedinwhite I've just looked up the 2011 tables and you're right that language results are not impressive on the whole in Wandsworth, whereas quite a few Richmond schools are strong in this area - some offer Latin and/or Mandarin as an enrichment activity too, e.g. Grey Court and Orleans Park, and RPA has a Latin choir. Most also seem to good science results. Burntwood seems OK though?

Quintessential the mention of Latin reminds me - has anyone mentioned West London Free School? With Gunnersbury, it looks like a priest's reference on church attendance would be more important than date of baptism, although it would be very unfair if they didn't make allowances for your situation.

[Lisaletta]

MiW thanks for you comments, don't worry I am not offended at all by your post and find it interesting to read your views. As I said previously the thing that does annoy me is people making judgments about schools they don't really know about. Fair enough that you chose to send your kids private but why disparage comps on the basis of one visit a few years ago and seeing a few rougher pupils outside the schools gates? Yes there will be rougher pupils, yes the academic results will not be as good as selective schools this is because they are COMPREHENSIVES.

If you look at the results of Wandsworth schools they are actually quite good in comparison with the rest of England but no one is saying there is not room for improvement because there is. I did not send my dd to St Cs because of political views I sent her because I thought it would be the best school for her having weighed up a no. of factors. It is a nice safe local school, all her friends were going and she wanted to go there. My DD has been very happy indeed there and yes perhaps she could have got better exam results elsewhere but this is not the be all and end all of life. I also value the Christian ethos of the school and I think this feeds into the pastoral care which is excellent. BTW St Cecilias does offer triple science for GCSE and many pupils take it. The language department has improved a lot recently and is now actively organising exchanges etc which is very beneficial.

Yes I could have re-mortgaged to send DD private. However given the state of the economy now and the need to pay for university education I am glad I did not embark on this path. There are far too many people in this area struggling financially in a desperate attempt to send their kids private when they could have got a perfectly good education at a comp and perhaps invested in a few private lessons to top up. Still that is their choice and obviously once you have brought into the private system it is comforting to think that the state comps are rubbish as this might provide a comfort to them when they realise they can barely afford the essentials let alone a holiday. One thing I will say is that they are doing Wandsworth educational authority and the taxpayer in general a big favour as there is a lot of pressure on school places in this area.

Ashcroft is also an excellent school and many professional parents I know are very happy with it. One thing I know they do is identify 20/30 kids at the start and track their progress very actively with a view to getting them into top unis.

On a different note: Quintessential - I would also look at KGS, friends have kids there and it is much easier to get into than KCS but has good academic standards. It is also mixed and appears to have a nice old fashioned atmosphere which might suit yr ds.

[swanthingafteranother]

re: Gunnersbury, date of baptism was not an issue. Regular attendance over last two or was it five years WAS (and that does not have to mean every week on the dot, but a committment (sp?) to your local parish church, so that the priest knows you, and can recommend you and presumes you to go every week (if if you have missed a few weeks no priest is going to consign you to the irregular attendance box, if he feels you are among the "faithful" - a reference from the parish priest in Norway wouldn't go amiss to give to your present priest if that is an issue, they are usually very understanding, the priests I mean...) Gunnersbury did not ask for all sort of extras like parents' baptismal certificate or proof of FHC, although I think this was latter was assumed if you were from a Catholic school. Nor do they ask for proof that you have attended a Catholic school for last few years (another extra demanded by CVMS and Oratory If boys from your school attend Gunnersbury that is to some extent a recommendation in itself.

Just to reassure you!

Gunnersbury used to be thought quite "rough" and a catchall for those who couldn't get in to CVMS in our school, but it really has not proved to be so at all. (I'm not saying that is true of its reputation to other primaries who feed into it) There is a big emphasis on academic achievement there atm, and I wonder whether it is rebranding itself somewhat...new headmaster in last two years etc etc. It has always been a very good solid school but it seems to be heading in a new direction, and trying to change its profile perhaps???

[Mominatrix]

QS, don't write off Kings just because of the number accepted. DS was accepted to Kings in a year when they were accepting a total of 8 boys with 90+ applying. He is bright, but not what I would call "creme de la creme" - just enthusiastic and well rounded.

Additionally, the Head at Kings was saying that they get quite a few nos to their acceptances because of the overlap in acceptances with grammar schools.

Give it a go, and don't be frightened by numbers.

[swanthingafteranother]

And CVMS and Oratory will take reasons for late baptism, such as you have described, with documentary evidence (supporting letter from your priest or priest at the time who read blessing), and I do know people whose children have got in with DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE (you have to look at the form!) so that is not a reason, if you are taken by those schools. I personally was put off by their whole method of selection, and had no desire to go a school which imposed those sorts of sanctions on parents wth new babies struggling with all sorts of personal issues, family situations/divisions etc, that might have led to late baptism, so I just felt "sod off" when I was asked those sort of questions. For that reason I'm not even going to bother with Sacred Heart in Hammersmith this year (wink) which everyone is frothing at the mouth over (I have twin boy and girl in Year 6

[swanthingafteranother]

oh yes, and Gunnersbury is now providing Latin to its Gifted and Talented boys in year 8-9 onwards sadly I don't think ds1 will be in that stream which is a pity because I am better at Latin than at Spanish [rueful]

All the best, and you will overcome all these choices! Don't be cast down by all those inspirational headteachers' speeches either, they can be a bit wearing, just look at the classrooms, listen to teachers, feel the atmosphere, and the Art Room displays. I was very affected by how stuffy the schools were, and that was quite a big part of my decision to chose G over others, it just felt airy and open, and a place a boy could breathe.

[QuintessentialShadows]

We really enjoyed our time as KCS today. They said not to worry about the amount of spaces per applicant. They also said to make an appointment with the head and explain our sons case: Bright, but educated overseas without following a UK curriculum. Considering that he had to restart "reception" in Norway, after having completed Y1 here, due to Norwegian children starting school at the age of 6, and went from a Y3 in Norway to a Y5 in the uk, and managed to have a school record with a couple of 4As and 5s, his current headmistress was very impressed. The person dh spoke to said this is exactly the scenario that the head would want to know about when looking at the exams. It may account for lower exam scores, but still a very high potential.

Two 12 year olds conducted our tour. They were excellent. One said he had come from a state school at 11+, and was lucky because he got a good scholarship, which came in handy as they had no money! They were so confident, and on the ball. They were discussing together were to take us next, when they took a wrong turn saying "I am sorry about this, we seem to have some technical difficulties" Totally at ease.

I also loved that there was a woodwork department in design and engineering. They had done a new take on Dog Sledge. A sledge for dogs to sit in, complete with space for water and food bowl built in. Excellent!

[Annelongditton]

What did DS think?

KCS are very good at taking details like this into consideration when offering places. A friend's DS went in from a non particularly academic state school at year 5, she said they asked the state school what maths etc they had covered and his paper was only marked on the sections he had been taught.

There are some very one dimensional, pushed to breaking point by their parents "academic" boys at DS's prep, they were not offered places at KCS although they were at other top London schools. Mr Halls always says that he is looking for boys who will get involved in all parts of school life and give everything a go, and I do actually believe him, as I'm sure these boys performed brilliantly in the pre-test.

Good Luck if you decide to go ahead, and with your other school visits.

BTW scholarships at KCS are worth very little, but they do have a good bursary fund.

[QuintessentialShadows]

Ds liked it. But he said not as much as he liked Ibstock. Facilities at Ibstock are newer, but I liked the atmosphere at KCS. We are seeing Ashcroft and St Celia on Monday, and Emanuel on Tuesday, so I think a lot will be clearer over the next couple of weeks. Hamptons is on the 22nd, but I wont be around for that because I am studying for further qualifications this year and many Saturdays are spent in Central London.

[bizzey]

Glad it went well QUINTESS.. Been meaning to come back on and write ..in fact I did and lost the message as my keys were sticking and pressed s

omthing in frustraton ....and deleted it all...and had no time to re- write !

Ahhh pressed wrong button again !!Different computer than normal !

So from what I can gather you have visited IS AND KCS.....next Ashcroft and ST C..It would be interesting for your views and comparrisons....

Remember gut instinct and honest pros and cons of all areas about all schools will help you see the bigger picture...

Only a month to go and you will know your choices and order !!!!!!!!

[Annelongditton]

I would always go with DCs choice because they are the one who has to go every day and you wouldn't even visit a school you weren't prepared to seriously consider.

Good Luck with the rest of your viewings, its like house hunting you know when you find the right one.

[Copthallresident]

Quintessentialshadows Glad you enjoyed KCS. I would not give up on Hampton because of what was said on the website. I would at least go to see it and have the same conversation as you had at KCS to test the water. IME all these schools value DCs experiences overseas and will take it into account. Their assessments are designed to give them a picture of the whole DC and all their strengths and weaknesses, and they will take a balanced view. I very much doubt that all the Hamptons I know had read all those books at 11 but they are all lovely boys, confidant but also thoughtful and less touched by the cult of laddish "banter" that seems to pervade some private schools, and they love their school. They also have a diverse intake with many pupils from different cultures. Plus they do have so many places available at 11, and such a good record on taking pupils from state primaries.

You may now face the problem we did. In our hearts we wanted DDs to go to state schools, for the reasons some other posters have highlighted. It had even been a factor in moving out of a black hole of good state secondary provision (which is why I especially applaud the Richmond Park Head and recognise what a hero she is). However once DD had seen the facilities and been schmoosed by the Heads at private schools, who really took an interest in her and her experiences overseas, she wouldn't entertain the state schools we saw (and she got into Tiffin). She really noticed the difference in facilities and felt they were disinterested in her as a person. I do still have a residual regret that she didn't go to a state school, there have been minuses to a private education, as well as pluses. However as Annlongditton says you have to go with your DDs choice as long as they have sound reasons.