South West London Secondary Schools, I am stumped.

[QuintessentialShadows]

My mind is spinning with the schools "of choice", and I am hoping somebody with actual knowledge will tell me a little bit:

St Celia
Ashcroft Technology College
John Bosco College

Christs

Gunnersbury Catholic school for boys

Wimbledon College

Kingston Grammar
Ibstock Place
Emanuel School
Kings College Wimbledon

I have a spread sheet, and I am trying to jot down important info, and plan visits. But I just feel that my mind has frozen, and I reach for coffee and chocolate, and neither help....

Would it be wise to quote chapter and verse on a public forum? About other people's dc?

Hi, I think all these schools have good and bad sides tbh, you just need to look around at a selection and pick those that suit your child. As others have said there is a good choice of private and state schools in SW London. Once yr kid has started at a school the journey won't be such a big thing and if the school is right then a longer journey will be worth it. For what it is worth here are my musings on the schools mentioned: St Cs - excellent pastoral care, very caring happy school, results o.k but could be better considering the large middle class intake but maths is really strong, good music. Ashcroft - excellent comprehensive school, results getting better and better, outstanding ofsted, VERY strict discipline policy means behaviour excellent might not suit all but many children really happy there and being pushed academically, sports not good at either St Cs or Ashcroft. Emanuel, more of a middle class comp, excellent sports and extra curricular and good pastoral care. You probably cld get the same results at ST Cs or Ashcroft however so you are just paying for sports/nice atmosphere. KGS, never heard anything bad about pastoral care here, kids seems really happy, academic standards better than Emanuel, hockey rather than rugby and sports at Hampton Court. Ibstock has a reputation for being a rich kids/ex pats sort of place - I know one extremely academic pupil who left as did not fit in socially, kids constantly going off for week-ends abroad/second homes etc. KCS - the creme de la creme academically so if your son is up to it then go for it. All these schools aside from KCS are co=ed which may or may not be a factor with you. Good luck

wombley Obviously not. I meant specific examples of ways in which the pastoral care was failing, it is possible to post about specific weaknesses without describing specific examples, and naming names. It's just that necessarily postings on here are subjective and parents respond differently to their own experiences and so it helps if there is some context so that OPs and other readers can evaluate the advice, what is a problem for one person is not necessarily a problem for them, in fact may be a plus. What suits one child will not suit another. DDs peers do discuss the fact that KGS is stricter than some other schools but then feel that not allowing pupils to get away with disruptive and other behaviour which has an adverse effect on others just because they have personal problems isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially for the pupil with the problems.

OP, choose KCS given your ds's previous experiences if you possibly can. That's my personal view. Check all schools' websites, look at their policy documents in particular, and see how seriously they take pastoral care.

For example, the KCS anti-bullying policy is exemplary; the best independent schools, eg Rugby, Manchester Grammar, have a very similarly worded one, but the KCS one is brilliant IMO.

The time has come, eh

You and I knew we'd have this dilemma, I seem to remember! I wish I could help, but am equally clueless. And will be looking for a girl, rather than a boy, so not the same choices exactly (or catchment, by the look of your list).

So no help, but just wanted to wish you luck with researching and choosing - and to your ds, too.

Now read whole thread - and can add similar comments re Ibstock (from friends). I looked at it for Primary for dd1, and was quite put off by the Head's attitude to SLDs and in general....made me sad, because fifteen years ago it would have been perfect for dd1. Child centred, artsy, happy. Hey ho.

can't believe ds is Y6 already!! Eek! I am going to go and visit RPA as well as other schools, would love it to be happy enough, and good enough, for the dds by the time they are ready for secondary. Here's hoping.

The Learning Enrichment team supports students with SLDs at King's College School and is quite outstanding in the way they nuture, protect the self esteem and ultimately assist the students achieve their potential. For the first time in our experience there was an SEN department that didn't conflate SLDs/SENs with intelligence or ability. They saw it as simply an obstacle to the expression of a student's potential. Totally brilliant.

Forgot to add - KCS is co-ed in the sixth form now and the presence of the girls (now around 80) has been a positive influence on the whole school.

St Celia - We looked and left. Weak curriculum geared to the low achievers and we heard staff yelling at pupils and pupils yelling at staff. Very poor language department, non existent library, and could not confirm if three separate sciences were taught. If you live in Richmond and aren't a regular church goer there's no way you will get a place anyway. I know it's supposed to getting better now it has a new head.

Ashcroft Technology College - more popular than it was but I understand it's very rough - I drive past it regularly and there seems to be a very regular police presence outside.

John Bosco College - No idea.

Christs - no idea.

Gunnersbury Catholic school for boys - no idea.

Wimbledon College - used to have a fantastic reputation but it has waned I think and the boys now do not look as well behaved as they did 9 or 10 years ago. The church criteria used to be tougher than the oratory.

Kingston Grammar - didn't look - but know parents who have moved children.

Ibstock Place - bit quirky, not terribly academic, when we sought info about
9 years ago the staff were very offhand.

Emanuel School - we looked at it for dd and thought it was a boys school with a few girls in it. Not right for our dd but seemed nice if not at all academic.

Kings College Wimbledon - can't be beaten in my opinion. Had a boy there for 10 years and very happy indeed. But it is a tough environment and if they aren't bright, sociable, musical or sporty they will have the stuffing knocked out of them.

Don't know why you haven't got Hampton (fab reports) or St Pauls on your list. We also hear very good reports about St John's Leatherhead although it isn't awfully academic.

Tiffin/Sutton Grammar?

Just a quick one to answer a question, before I read all the new posts.
A couple of you have mentioned a school I have not mentioned, and the reason I have not mentioned it is because of reports of cocaine use (and pushing in school) among the older kids. I have heard this from several independent sources with knowledge of the school. Maybe this problem is rife across public secondaries, I dont know, but it was the only time this came up. However we are registered for the feeder school, and will get exam information in October....

Hamptons we are now also investigating thanks to a previous poster and have put it on the list!

Hi, married in white, really sorry about this and I appreciate that I have also expressed my opinions on this thread but I feel compelled to post on this. I have to say that I find your views on SW London comps a bit upsetting. I would be the first to admit that you are going to have lower socio economic groups there and some of the behaviour of kids leaving the premises can look a bit boisterous. However many kids thrive in these schools with the attention of great professional teachers. You have been lucky enough to have enough money to chose private schools or have very clever kids who can get into grammar schools and of course everyone has the right to chose the best education they can arrange for their children. But I would urge you to PLEASE think carefully before making negative comments about schools you (if you are being honest) didn't really have any intention of sending your kids to. I think it serves to worry younger parents and helps to raise the temperature a bit!!.

St Cs and Ashcroft are both pretty good schools actually but obviously can't be compared in academic results to selective private or state grammar schools. They are educating the whole community after all. However many kids from both schools get to good Unis and there are a lot of professional parents (like me) sending their kids for whatever reasons. There are actually advantages to mixing with a broad cross section of society (including less intelligent/disadvantaged and poor pupils) and you won't get this at grammar/independent schools. Over 90% have our children at comps and most of them do just fine. It is in all our interests that these schools succeed (UK competitiveness etc) so I don't think it is helpful to be negative about London comps unless you have direct experiences of them. Thanks and good luck to everyone looking around schools now - remember the no.1 factor in your child's success is your imput wherever they end up

Absolutely no idea OP but I think it only takes one or two to get involved in the drug scene for that to be a problem. The schools with the best pastoral care will deal with it as soon as it's identified. A lot is down to the boys and their parents and parents having firm boundaries. It has always been a problem and there has always been the occasionnal young person who gets involved in spite of everyone's best efforts.

Lisaletta, sW london comps which are that- comps - designed to reach the potential of every child need to raise their game and they won't do that if the middle classes who attend them make persistent excuses about why they can't.

Secondly, the OP ventured a spread of schools across all sectors and was seeking realstic and honest advice rather than a sugar coated sop.

Drug use is certainly something you will find at absolutely all secondary schools whatever type, I personally wouldn't let this put me off a school I was interested in. Agree that schools should be able to deal with this with good pastoral care - worth asking what the policy is however if you are concerned.

I do take the point about honest advice MiW and I probably could be accused of being a bit of a hypocrite as I have been guilty of saying negative things about certain schools in the past. However I do get a bit fed up with people who have their kids at grammar schools or private dismissing comps. Your kids are not there, they are mixing in an elite group which is your choice and entirely understandable but please leave the comps alone unless you have more direct experience as you have opted out of that system.

By the way the middle class parents I know are really not making excuses about education. We are actively engaging with the schools - I certainly am not afraid to complain about things I am not happy about and will continue to do so. If all or most of the middle class parents opted out then this would leave these schools to go down the plug hole (e.g like Elliott) with negative consequences for all the pupils there and the community at last. I totally respect every parents right to chose the best school for their child but ultimately I think the educational segregation we have in England is bad news for the country in a modern world where we need highly skilled workers and not loads of people labouring in a coal mine etc.

QS, who are your independent sources re drugs at the other school? PM me if you prefer. We are neighbours, I think.

I think that there is always going to be drug use by teenagers and at schools where some of the children have a lot of money there can be easy access, but obviously if it's happening in school it's a big problem.

The Latymer Upper head (another school not on your list) was very open about the drugs issue at the open day a few years back - that he would be lying if he said drugs were not something to be aware of as they were endemic in modern teenage life.

QuintessentialShadows The issue of drug, and alcohol abuse in schools is a tricky one, and always has been. I went to one of the UKs foremost provincial Grammar Schools when it was still direct grant (just revealed I am ancient ) and drugs were at all our parties, including heroin. With a 20 year old (ages even further ) I know that it happens at all the schools we have discussed and a few others that might surprise you. DD went out with a boy who went to Oratory and there was always a group taking drugs at their parties, and one boy she knew was excluded, but moved to Wimbledon College. The use of weed isn't uncommon amongst boys, and there are always a few idiots who try low grade dealing in the ever changing "legal" stuff they get on the internet. The trouble is that teenage boys especially are risk takers, so yes sometimes there are idiots who try Class A drugs as well . The issue is what the schools do about it and I certainly wouldn't entertain a school that didn't have a zero tolerance policy, if they get caught they are out. I do know that in at least three cases where boys have been excluded they actually have been fundamentally nice boys who were just being stupid and got caught. I know Peter Winter at Latymer took the fact that Latymer became known as a "party" school very seriously because rightly it really wasn't what the school was about. Having said that a lot of wealthy kids from Central London go there and sadly that sort of behaviour does seem to go with a smart set social life.

Lets not forget alcohol as well, which is probably responsible for far more risk to our DCs. You only have to go out on Wimbledon Common, or any of the other parks and recreation grounds on a Friday night in June to know that plenty of parents think it is perfectly alright for their DCs to be going out and getting legless from the age of 14 and there are no shortage of stories of the inevitable dire consequences, stomachs pumped, sexual assault etc etc.

However the real issue for me is not are there people who take drugs or binge drink at a school but rather have I set the boundaries to protect my DDs and that they have the attitudes, self esteem and knowledge for them to say no to drugs and drink responsibly at least most of the time.

Lisaletta, I have asked for advice on a number of schools across a broad spectrum, private schools, state schools, and faith schools. I understand you feel upset by reading advice about a school you know, and quite possibly have a different experience of. I don't think anybody has rubbished a state school without having some experience of the school, whether it is having a child at the school in the past or present, living next door to a school, etc.

I am really appreciative of this thread, as many posters have taken time to post at length both their own experiences and the experiences of others they know. It is invaluable, and I will bear everything in mind when going to all the various open days.

I think the word "rough" has been used about some schools especially because I mentioned my sons history of insecurity, moving a fair bit, bullying, and not being particularly street smart. I feel very protective of my boy, he has not had the greatest of childhoods so far, from a schooling perspective. I know he cannot cope with rough and tumble, being played tricks on, such as making him stumble, or trip over, I know he is extremely upset when he has nobody to sit with during lunch time. He does not say much, but I know it upsets him. He takes offense at rough language, and takes it really to heart if somebody uses the F word. Etc.
He is currently in a state school, a Catholic primary, and seem to thrive more here in a more genteel environment than the very boisterous provincial atmosphere abroad, where

I have not dismissed any schools as of yet, but my main criteria is to find a school where my son can be happy and thrive, it does not need to be 110 % academic, but it must have excellent pastoral care and a caring community.

I also take to heart what some have said about having a rough time at KCS if not either very musical or very sporty, along with the "weekend culture" of Ibstock, as financially we cannot compete with that. This aspect of Ibstock I have heard about before, as it is probably the school I know most of. I have friends and neighbours with children in both the primary and secondary who have mentioned the same.

I will look at both Ashcroft, St Celia, Wimbledon College, Christs, Gunnersbury and Cardinal Vaughn, along with the grammars and public schools. I am at the moment without having seen either hoping for either Gunnersbury or Cardinal Vaughn to be honest, as this will provide the most "stability" for my son, as most boys in his class are aiming in that direction.

singersgirl neighbours as in actual neighbours, or neighbours as in living nearby? If you are who I think you might be, come around for coffee! (Here I am hoping you wont end up knocking on an unsuspecting strangers door, that would be embarrassing) It came up when a group of local mums were discussing secondary schools.

I guess it is right, in secondary they will always come across drugs and alcohol, and it is all dependent on their boundaries and how they were brought up. Scary times. I feel so not ready for this.

Totally agree, drug taking happens in all schools, the important thing is how the school deals with it. Don't rule a school out because of rumours like this, the important issue is how the school responds when you ask about it (which you should)

QS, I think just living nearby, but we are often on threads about similar primary schools! And excluding the Catholic schools most of the ones on your list are ones that we looked at.

Re Christ's, I know lots of people with children there and they're mostly very happy. It's quite a small school and very good pastorally, I think. No major complaints other than a few people have said because it doesn't set for many subjects that their children aren't sufficiently challenged - but they've got very good GCSE results despite this.

RPA is improving rapidly and many of DS2's friends have gone this year. I know several families who are extremely happy with it, some with very bright children who've found the streaming and extension provision excellent. Also they have a separate base for Y7s so they get 'nurtured' more.

Quint you wont know me but I've read many of your threads especially about the move back and the challenges you've faced. Dealing with school entry so soon must be a nightmare.

Just to say, re the school you don't mention by name (v tactful!), that my DS is there and of course there are boys who take drugs there (get them from their parents..) but it's totally not everyone (a particular set in general) and I promise you it is no more than any other school. My DS views those kids as fools; one or two leave every now and then; and the school has a very strong parent education programme and anti-drugs policy.

The only reason to reassure you is from your description of your DS the strong pastoral side there, coupled with the size of the school and sheer diversity of the boys, means that it successfully brings in and nurtures boys who find it harder to fit in, are geeky, have had problems elsewhere etc. At the extreme, my DS has mentored another boy there with a SN and he's super happy there. It's tough to get in of course - and very tough at the feeder school - but I just didnt want you to rule it out because you happen to have heard bad stories. I've heard far worse from other schools but know it's all just anecdotal and not statistically reliable.

Hi QS, I'm also nearby (waves to singersgirl!) and posted on your previous thread about the KGS exam paper.

Re your shortlist:
Emanuel - Friends with children there are very happy with it.
Kingston Grammar - Ds's friend there in yr 8 very happy.
Kings College School - no idea although a boy we knew vaguely went in yr 6 and took a while to settle in.
Ibstock - Ds's friend in yr 9 likes it but complains about too much homework. His friends in yr 8 all seem to be happy there though their parents are less keen on some aspects (deliberately vague)

Gunnersbury Catholic - no idea
St Richard Reynolds Catholic Secondary School - no idea
Ashcroft - hearsay that it's a bit rough but have no evidence to back that up

Salesian College + John Paul II School = Saint John Bosco College.

Quintessentialshadows I too found it scary but actually whatever school they go to there will be a range of friendship groups who you could define however you will, cool, inbetweeners, geeks. nerds, indies, sloanes and it isn't often that the apple falls far from the tree in terms of which crowd your DC graviates towards, and the norms and values that prevail in their friendship group. Like the other poster my DDs and their friends soon came to the conclusion that the people who thought they were cool taking drugs, knocking back bottles of vodka, posting near porn and minute by minute updates on their emotional turmoil and sex lives on Facebook and Formspring and (they claimed ) sleeping around were actually sad and stupid and would have reached that conclusion from observation even without all the parental and school earbashing. Though of course I am the strictest parent IN THE WORLD

The one variable that you, and the school, cannot research and control is the type of DCs who turn up in a school in any given year. DDs were at the same school, DD1 had a lovely year, friendly and respectful of difference, and so it is in every other year but DD2s when somehow just about every damaged and dysfunctional child in West London decided on the school. It has been a nightmare with a lot of bullying, bitchyness and outrageous attention seeking behaviour that has stretched the school's pastoral care to the absolute limits (one teacher commented to me that she had not had such a dysfunctional year in her 30 year career and sometimes she went home and wept after some of the stories the DCs told her about their home lives). However it has meant that DD2's friendship group has defined themselves in opposition to the cool crowd, the behaviour required to be considered cool was so abhorrent to them that they very early on were proud to be uncool and publicly admit they were interested in their work and prefer galleries to parties etc, whereas DD1s friendship group assumed a show of coolness and wouldn't admit to their inner geek until sixth form!