New test for Tiffin Girls

[legallady]

This will really put the cat amongst the pigeons!

I have a lot of sympathy for those girls planning for 2013 admission and who have only just found out that they will now have to prepare for numeracy and literacy (at Level 5 and above) as well as VR and NVR just in case they are lucky enough to be one of the 400 girls to get through the first stage testing

[SoupDragon]

Looking at DS1s Y5 grades, he was 5c in maths and 4a in everything else. He isn't gifted and is not an avid reader. I can't find DS2s Y5 report but (IIRC) his levels were marginally higher and, again, he is not gifted.

I really don't think it would be unusual for the bright children to be able to do level 5 stuff 3 months in to Y6 and for the real bright ones to grasp L6 stuff. DS had one hour a week, term time, maths tuition for one year to put the knowledge of how to do the questions. Since his brain is clearly wired for maths, this wasn't a problem and I doubt would present a significant problem for the kind of girls Tiffins would want to attract. They want the brightest - this will give them that (probably better than the current VR/NVR tests do). To try and claim there is any other reason or to persuade people that is was done due to the whole deadline thing is disingenuous on their part.


Interestingly, Wilsons have dropped the VR from their entrance exam altogether and didn't do NVR when DS1 sat it either. Perhaps because it is relatively easy to tutor for these two things even where the child is perhaps not naturally academic.

[singersgirl]

I don't think it's that unusual for children to be a level 5 in all subjects - certainly DS2 was at the end of y5 and DS1 was level 5 for everything but writing. I know of several other children who were as well. DS2 scored 100% on the first practice SATs test they did this year in maths - so definitely a 5a a couple of weeks into school.

You don't need to be 'rare and gifted', just academically very able. Tiffin is a highly selective school and wants to get very able girls.

I think it will be a better test of all-round ability too, regardless of the level discussion.

Although it won't help the 400 girls who pass the first test in the application process, it will help the 800 plus others who will know not to waste a slot for Tiffin.

[coffeecake9]

The change clearly has nothing to do with complying with the new admissions code as Tiffin Boys are still testing only vr/nvr and are just bringing the exam forward.

Far from reducing the level of tutoring,the change at Tiffin Girls will massively increase it. "Familiarisation" with vr and nvr at home will not now suffice. The change will also disadvantage children at state primary schools unless their parents can afford extra tuition, especially in Maths. Most primary schools will not have covered the ground in Maths and this means there will be a gap in the children's knowledge, which is not a reflection of their aptitude.

I think the school should have at least provided details of the test (eg exactly which Maths topics will be tested, whether there will be an essay, whether the English paper will be multiple choice, how each paper is weighted etc). If Tiffin wants to go the private school testing route, then it might at least provide the sort of information the private schools do.

[SheHulk]

Soup, I wish all schools did like Wilsons. Maths and English (Reading and Writing). That should be enough. That's what they are doing in school. The reasoning is the problem. Scrap the reasoning NOW

[legallady]

Someone from Tiffin Girls obviously reads this website - they have now clarified their test arrangements as follows:

"Stage 2 testing will include three tests which will assess numeracy and literacy: one each
of mathematics, reading and writing. These tests will be at an appropriate level of
challenge to determine the offer of places at the school and will be guided by the content
of the Primary National Curriculum. For guidance only: the level of challenge of these
tests will be appropriate for candidates anticipated to achieve Level 5 at the end of Year
6."

Sounds much better

[SoupDragon]

LOL!

[thetasigmamum]

@custardcake DD1 was level 5 across the board at the end of Y4. They didn't do (as far as I am aware) the SATs papers when she was in Y3 (at the end of Y4 the advanced kids sat the same SATs as the Y6 kids were doing). She is now at a super selective grammar (which gets pretty much identical exam stats as Tiffins year on year). DD1 was not in any way unusual in terms of maths when she arrived at her current school. I think her English is probably heading towards G&T though. And she wasn't the only one with those sorts of levels at the primary school either. DD2 was level 5 in literacy at the end of Y3 and a level 4a in Maths (she has been taught with older year groups for both of those subjects). DD2 does appear to be way ahead in literacy but there are 3 other kids in her year who are as good or better than her at Maths. DS on the other hand didn't hit level 5 in Maths till Y6 and never hit it in literacy (well, hopefully he is now but we don't get very much feedback from his school, he didn't want to even try for the grammar and is at the comp for which his primary school is a feeder, where he is very happy and settled).

Many primary schools don't push the pupils as much as they could and at that age children develop at different rates anyway, which is obviously one of the arguments against selection at 11+ but it seems clear that there are a core of kids who do hit those levels early on given the opportunity. It doesn't mean the others won't catch up, but schools like Tiffins give those kids the scope to carry on powering forward if that is the way they are going, which is surley a good thing? It seems like Tiffins has more people wanting to go there than they can shake a stick at and I would guess that based on their experiences to date they feel they will fill the places easily even setting the bar high, so why not? If they feel their remit is to provide a tailored education to the sort of kids who are hitting those levels at that age then, given they believe in testing, they need to make the test appropriate. The sad thing isn't that Tiffins sets the bar so high, it's that there are so few state schools that do that or maybe set the bar just a bit lower to capture the kids who are bubbling under (and might overtake the 'hares' in a year or so). So you see the flight to posh schools for those who can afford it - but what happens to those who can't?

One important thing to remember is the kids who end up in super selective schools have often been bullied in their primary schools for being 'swots' or geeky. DD1 was, DD2 isn't, nobody would dare . She's feisty.

Super selective schools are supposed to cater for these sorts of pupils. It's not unreasonable for them to set the test bar accordingly.

[singersgirl]

The power of Mumsnet ! At least that sounds more reassuring.

[kensingtonia]

Unfortunately I don't think it was the power of Mumsnet! I know of quite a few parents who have telephoned in the last few days. I would prefer a test that was impossible to tutor for. I think the new system is an improvement but will lead to even more tutoring. It seems fairly similar to the test at Henrietta Barnett School - a colleague has a five year old who is already being tutored for that one!

[SoupDragon]

The (private) schools DSs sat for interview all the children who pass the exam. They base their offers on that rather than just the marks. I imagine this isn't practical for state schools though.

[kensingtonia]

They are not allowed to interview! I think church schools still did up to relatively recently ostensibly to gauge religious commitment but that has also been stopped.

[Fraktal]

custard the problem then would be an intake who excel at literacy, one with a stranding aptitude for science and a year which are brilliant at maths.

[SoupDragon]

Even if they don't know what is coming up in the exam they will still be tutored in everything.

It is a shame they can't interview - the private schools use it to spot the children who have been extensively tutored and which appear to be naturally bright. Tutoring will get you through the exam but it may not see you through the interview.

Having said that, I would have been shocking at interview because I was/am painfully shy.

I don't think there is a way to remove the bias towards tutoring really.

[SoupDragon]

LOL - Ive just found out that's exactly what DS2 did in one of his exams - 81% in maths, 40% in english. :o

I do think that maths and, to a lesser extent, english rely on ability rather than being the kind of thing you can cram into a child. With maths you do have to have a talent for it in order to be able to understand what is needed, especially under exam conditions.

I think you could tutor a chid how to do well at English, barring things like dyslexia, but anything thrown at them that was out of the ordinary would mess that up and you could probably spot a "tutored" essay for example.

[Yellowtip]

Tiffin will have tweaked what it originally said - sloppily - to stop speculation that it had raised the bar and is now looking towards Level 6 as standard. Which would be a nonsense.

Highish Level 5s at the end of Y6 is the expectation for the best of the superselectives. So Level 4a and above at the end of Y5 should suffice.

Changing the format randomly would be a good idea to combat the advantages of tutoring but the schools have to take great care not to disadvantage more vulnerable kids. If Tiffin's bar for the first tests is set relatively low then on the face of it it appears very slick: it conforms to the new Admissions Code yet gives the school time to spend on weeding out the best while probably minimising the advantage of tutoring. Quite time intensive for the school, but they must feel it's worth it.

[YummyHoney]

This new test will help the cream rise to the top. Of course the girls have to be level 5s and above to get in . . . . that is the whole point of Tiffin Girls - it's for the super- intelligent. It's not supposed to be for your run-of-the-mill children. What's wrong with that? (goes to bed).

[Yellowtip]

Tiffin and others like it are for the soundly intelligent, not the 'super' intelligent Yummy. Otherwise Tiffin's results would look different.

The cream metaphor is a little unpleasant. I'd be very annoyed with my children if they took the attitude that they were 'the cream'.

[CarrotsAreNotTheOnlyVegetables]

thetasigmamum - you ask where the DCs who are bubbling "just under" the Tiffin Girls level go. Well, in the local area they go to the local excellent girls comp and do just as well in the top streams, along with the super bright DDs who were securely in the Tiffin range but chose to opt out of the frightening arms race of tutoring.