What would you put in the E Bacc?

[Talkinpeace]

I've just added this onto another thread but it would be interesting to have others views. If nothing else then MN can lobby Gove

English (Language or Lit)
Maths (general, applied, further or stats)
Science (physics, chemistry, biology, combined)

plus three out of

Art (pure, design, textile, music)
MFL (any currently spoke language - huge advantage for comps with a high immigrant cohort!!)
Humanity (Geography, History, Classics, Latin, Greek, RE)
Technology (Computing, ICT, any other vocational)

That would ensure that Every child was entered for exams that gave them a rounded education but there was a bit of leeway...

Your thoughts?

[onceamai]

Well my DS's school does the IB and at GCE (they do a combi of GCSE, IGCE and one of the old boards) the mandatory subjects are:

English (lang and lit)
Mathematics
Chemistry
Biology
Physics
French
RS (they all do it)

Optional for DS: Latin, Art, History, Greek.

They then choose from a very long list: Latin, Greek, Music, Art, Chinese, Russian, Drama, PE, History, Geography, ICT ...and I'm sure I must have missed some. They generally do two to four a year early and some pick up one or two others as extras if the timetable allows.

At IB they have to do: A language, a humanity, maths, a science and a language. Three are at a higher level and three are a little lower the highers are supposed to be more taxing than an A'Level and the lower level just below A'Level.

When I was at grammar school in the 70's we branched off into science or the arts at 14. The compulsory subjects were: English Language, English Literature, Maths, History, Biology, Geography, French. One then chose either Physics and Chemistry or: two from German, Latin, Art, Cookery or music.

When my mother was at school she "matriculated" and to do so had to pass a minimum of five subjects including English and Maths.

At an academic level I'm not sure much has changed over the years; it has just been dressed up and called something different. We do seem to have come full circle though and to have realised that one qualification, ie, GCSE does not suit every child and that there is a need for academic and more vocational qualifications. What was that vilified thing called - oh yes, CSE - what a surprise that it seems to have returned with differenct packaging as a BTEC. What actually needs to change IMO in the UK is not a dumbing down of qualifications to fit all but a significantly increased level of respect for those who are craftsmen and tradesmen supplying services we all need and value.

[startail]

Mumslife She's getting much better at organising herself, although she forgot choir again yesterday. Still at 13 can't read an analogue clock and will never know her tables. Yet she sings and can learn the words no problem.

The coordination thing is patchy, she could climb before she could walk, swims and rides a bike, but conventional running and ball sports throw her completely. She gave up the violin and her flute playing isn't exactly great, reading music for singing is one thing, trying to do it at the same time as getting fingers in the right place is quite another. And yet get her to do something requiring really fine motor control and she's fine.

Sorry very off topic except to say that to rigid a choice of subjects can be very unfair. I guess there are subject that pupils with other special needs would find difficult.

[startail]

I have a dyslexic DD, who finds spelling in English hard work. Expecting her to get a decent MFL GCSE (especially given the standard of language teaching in this country) is a joke.
She would be vastly better off doing music or art at which she could get a worth while grade

I got the best O'levels in my year and I don't have the EBac for the same reason, I choose to get A's for geography and history rather than a D for French.

[Kez100]

Whatever combination will, indeed, have some who disagree. However, a sensible selection which includes all of the main quality subjects at GCSE would receive less disagrement.

I, personally, don't see the ebacc mattering that much to Uni's because it is so silly in what it excludes.Unis are clever enoigh to realise that.

What it will effect is the provision of these subjects at GCSE and the numbers opting for them as the SMT's worry about the schools ebacc percentage. Parents will be suckered into the system by the Government and school propaganda.

I would be all for the ebacc if it included all sensible GCSEs because I have problem with the likes of Diplomas going for all but a small number of students where vocational study at 13 is best for them. They were very unlikely to be an ebacc student anyway.

[jgbmum]

I don't think it's very clear whether the E-Bacc is meant to be perceived as a pointer for a solid academic background, or an updated equivalent of the 1950s style school leavers certificate.

If I were designing it, then I would have

• English (any)
  
• Maths (any)
  
• Science (core science upwards)
  
• a Humanity (RE/Geog/History/Economics) or a foreign language (any)
  
• an Arts (art, music, drama, PE) or a Technical subject
  

I think 5 GCSEs from the above would give a reasonable spread and show a rounded character.

Then

Students can add on a further 4/5/6 subject to suit their interests and abilities.

[hellsbells99]

My dd is just starting her GCSEs and will not get the English Bacc - her options were chosen before Dec when the original proposal stated 'a humanity like History or Geography, Art or Music'.
She is studying: Eng lang; Eng lit; Maths; Statistics; 3 sciences; Spanish; Art; and Music - 10 good GCSEs in my opinion!
On top of this she has to do core RE, core PE (short GCSE), and an OCR in ICT (equiv to 2 GCSEs?). In her own time she is also studying for a BTEC level 2 in Performing Arts which she has nearly completed.
She has had the option of changing her mind but wants to continue with her original choice as it would mean dropping music or art - I don't have a problem with this as they were good options. She is very academic and in the top sets for everything but does not feel that either history or geography will help her pursue her career choices.
She is very musical and plays several instruments. Music is not an easy option and should count as a humanity in the English Bacc.
If you look at Oxford University's website then both the Faculties of Art and Music come under their Humanites section!

[nickengland151]

It is heartening to see so many others feel that Art should be included within the E Bacc.

The Government intends to make the E Bacc a measure of a school's success. 'Fair enough', you say, but if a school's success is measured by how many pupils achieve an E Bacc then it leads to schools pushing pupils to do the E Bacc subjects whether they suit them or not.

As an Art teacher I am dismayed by the fact my school will be actively pushing (bullying) pupils into doing a language in order to be seen as a 'success'.

The uptake for Art will be impacted upon immensely (as well as the other subjects outside of the E Bacc). Pupils who are strong academically but who also enjoy Art would be ushered away (It worries me that these pupils would have no creative outlet) and the pupils who do opt to take Art will have to share their classes with pupils who have no interest in Art but are no longer able to study E Bacc subjects as they are less academically strong and the MFL/Humanities courses they are interested in would be full.

The concept of core and options subjects should be abolished entirely. Every pupils should do English and Maths and then be able to pick from a full variety of subjects and courses available to them. Pupils in my school get two options subjects. The rest are picked for them. Madness!

I speak to many Year 9 pupils who, come options time, lament that they will be unable to do the things they love. If a pupil enjoys (and achieves in) Drama, Art, History, Geography and DT having only two options means they are having to say goodbye to three subjects they could have got good qualifications in!

I ask all of you to think about what you and your friends achieved in school and whether or not you use even half of what you learnt at GCSE level (or equivalent). I got 10 GCSEs but needed only English, Maths, Art and DT to be where I am today. The GCSEs I sweated over in Economics, Physics, Biology, Chemistry and French do nothing for me now and add salt to the wound of having to drop the Drama and History I loved doing.

Sorry for the length of the post and for going off track. The Arts deserve a place in the E Bacc!

[soph365]

Meditrina - Here's the link which highlights the shortage of skills needed for industry - notes that computer science and art and design should form part of the E-Bacc. Realy hope the government listen to the report they commissioned@

www.nesta.org.uk/home1/assets/features/next_gen

[themonalisa]

I would construct it around Science, Maths and English and offer options which are different outside of that: maybe language and humanities together, maybe practical and vocational, maybe the Arts.

[circular]

TheFallenMadonna - couldn't agree more re ICT. And I work in IT.
The only way my DD could do a MFL, humanity, arts & tech subject would be by dropping triple science. Much rather no ICT and 4 real option choices.

[TheFallenMadonna]

I like the subjects, but I wouldn't want them to be compulsory for all students. I would like to see ICT removed as a core subject, and instead be a series of compulsorily assessed competencies delivered through the rest of the curriculum. ICT as a subject irritates me for able children, and I would rather my DC had the time to do something more interesting.

[lotofkids]

definitely should include Religious Studies as a humanities option alongside history and geography. This is an academically rigorous subject, valued highly by universities for developing powers of critical thinking and evaluation of complex ethical and philosophical issues.

[meditrina]

soph365: would you be kind and link that report?

AllI could find was this which focusses on single sciences and maths.

Thanks.

[LadyLapsang]

Remember that the English Baccalaureate is the skeleton, an important framework, but it does not represent everything a pupil will study. Most pupils take about 9 or 10 subjects to GCSE so they can enhance the English Baccaluareate with all the optional subjects according to their ability, aptitude, interest and future career ambitions.

[soph365]

A report, commissioned by the Gov called Next Gen said art and design as well as computer science should be in E-Bacc. This is because there are key skills taught in these subjects which the next generation will need if the UK is to succeed in engineering and the creative industries. Why therefore are we asking young people to focus on such a narrow range of subjects?

[nagynolonger]

If you're going the academic route into engineering, design and technology would be very useful.

[nagynolonger]

I think music/art/RE should be included along with history and geography. They are not soft options.

Not convinced latin is that important.... I did do it for 3 years!

[Fennel]

I like the sound of the Ebacc as a precursor to A levels and university. It's one of very few tory policies or ideas I agree with, as long as it's not implemented retrospectively.

I'd keep it as proposed but permit RS in with History/Geography, possibly other subjects in there too, oand I'd permit Latin or Greek instead of a MFL.

I wouldn't include an arts or technology subject because you don't need them if you're going along an academic route. and I'm seeing the Ebacc as an academic route, not necessarily right for all children.

[onimolap]

I think that, as the E-Bacc is meant to be an academic badge, not an all rounder, then it's about right, and darleneconnor's description of the Scottish version sounds good too.

I would however expand the list of modern foreign languages, and would move classical languages to the humanities list. I'd add RS to humanities too.

[Kez100]

English (Language or Lit and the papers should be pure language and pure lit)
Maths (general)
Science (physics, chemistry, biology or combined)

And one from two of the following sections:

An art (pure, design, textile, music, drama, dance)
MFL or Classic language
Humanity (Geography, History, Economics, RE, Ethics

ICT should be taught throughout the syllabus from reception upwards.

[themonalisa]

I think the E-Bacc is narrow and willexclude many learners. I think that English and Maths and Science and ICT should be the core. I think that subjects can then be chosen form the Humanities, Art and Design, DT, P.E. and all the others that children enjoy and do well in.

[purits]

I think that the EBacc should consist of:

Part A: English Language and Maths (non negotiable)
AND
Part B: which can be a choice of two, academic or vocational.
The academic would consist of double science plus a language (modern or ancient) plus an essay subject (a Humanity or Eng Lit).
The vocational would consist of four subjects like music, art, drama, PE or a technology.

Thus either branch would require six subjects, leaving options available so that academics can do some vocational subjects and v.v.

There is no need to request a qualification in ICT or computing because it is assumed that kids can do this. If you insist on an ICT qualification then I shall insist on a handwriting and calligraphy qualification!