The state of the union

[Resignedtotheinevitable]

DH is good man, who means the very best for me and the DCs but his way is the only way. Amy other way undermines his whole sense of self and wellbeing.

We've been married for about 20 years and have 3 DCs (9, 11 and 13). We can't talk without him ranting for what seems like hours about my values being twisted. We haven't had sex for over 5 years and I sleep in the spare room. I can't bear sex without affection. He doesn't do cuddles or kisses or kindness. We've been to Relate twice. The first time was telephone counselling and the second time was couples counselling. It didn't help much.

I'm so weary of trying to hold the whole family edifice together when the foundations aren't sound.

We do have similarities. We're both honest and mean well. We both work hard and want the best for our children.

The differences are profound. I'm a great believer in politeness and civility and basic kindness. DH believes in unflinching honesty and directness and his right to be heard. I don't get heard much, if at all.

You need some examples. I spent the evening of Christmas Eve and all of Christmas morning cooking and cleaning. Hours and hours and hours of it. It took me around 8 hours of preparation, with starters and puddings and lots of vegetables to peel and chop. We had the DCs and six people from his side of the family so it was a large group to cater for.

Today, he tells me that I cooked far too much food. It was wasteful. He tells me that the service wasn't right because I should have put two sets of everything out. It's a long table so people shouldn't have to reach over for things. He tells me that the turkey was overcooked. I don't think it was overcooked, turkey is quite dry relative to chicken. My biggest offence was the waste, which was profligate and symptomatic of how my values are entirely warped.

Another example is maternity leave, which is long ago now but something I've never been able to forget. He thinks that both partners should contribute equally financially. In fact he said we had to be financially divorced, when he paid a joint credit card bill off in 1995. Normally I do earn my fair share. More than my fair share, actually. However my employers only allowed three months of paid maternity leave, so he insisted I went back after four months. We had enough savings for me to have a much longer time off with each DC, but he viewed that as me having a holiday.

He is ten years older than I am. He regrets having married and having children. He clashes violently (and I mean violently) with DD1. This is because he is so ridiculous about discipline. He'll shout and rant and rave when she's done something wrong, and try to confiscate her laptop. She refuses and shouts back. They have a tussle. She wins, then he comes back down minus the laptop. What is she learning through this? That bad behaviour goes unpunished if you shout and push and shove? He has suggested that we put DD1 into care because she is "vile". She isn't, she's headstrong and naughty and rebellious but that's what teenagers are. Nevertheless she is sweethearted and makes straight 'A's at school.

It's so over, isn't it?

[QueenofWhatever]

I just read your last post. You're on argument number two already this morning and trying to juggle all these balls in the air. It must be exhausting.

I left this summer and am lying in bed typing this on my laptop. DD is with her Dad for the week. Not all separations are two years of chaos. This could be you next Christmas, my ex was vile - controlling and manipulative and did similar things. No reason why you can't be me.

[HappyWoman]

do you ask yourself why you have continued this for 20 years?
Has it always been bad and you have somehow just ignored it?

I wonder if at this moment he wants out - it is classic to deflect the reasons back to the abused - iyswim.

It really does sound as if he is not prepared to put in any effort - surely he must know that it will cause the marriage to breakdown.

I also wonder if something happened 5 or so years ago that niether of you has faced up to. What prompted you to move to another bedroom at that time. Maybe you both want out and have done for a while but are somehow 'pushing' the other one to do it as there is not a 'real' reason for you to seperate and you dont want to be seen as the 'baddie' in splitting up the family.
In many ways it is easier to be the victim and i feel that is what you are trying to make yourself feel now.
(btw that was not in anyway meant as an insult to you - you really do sound as if you have put up with too much already).

[WhatNoLunchBreak]

"What is she learning through this? That bad behaviour goes unpunished if you shout and push and shove?"

She's also learning that it is acceptable to shout at your kids; it's acceptable to have two parents who sleep in separate rooms and who show no outward affection for each other; it's acceptable to have a complete lack of respect for your rights, your boundaries; and that it is acceptable to control all family members through fear and aggression.

You're worried that separation would be worse? How?

My thoughts are with you. It's a tough decision - but sometimes it's a no-brainer.

[STIDW]

I think it's important to realise that when relationships breakdown there is often a psychological phenomena when spouses see the other spouse in a overly negative image - weak, drunks, abusers, whores etc etc. That's not to say these are always inappropriate but American psychologists have labeled the phenomena Negative Reconstuction of Spousal Identity.

Counseling can often successful with relationship breakdown because someone listens non judgmentally and encourages the client to see things from a different perspective which minimises the damage to long term family relationships.

Sometimes we really need to stand back and remember we loved our partners or ex partners at some point and have children with them, we made choices and are responsible for the consequences.

[Resignedtotheinevitable]

That's interesting about negative reconstruction. I'm trying quite hard not to be overly negative about DH, nor to demonise him. I do of course accept that I made the decisions that got us all to this point. It's probably a combination of guilt or reluctance to admit to mistakes that has meant I've carried on so long.

Thank you for your thoughts. I've started trying to talk about all this to him.

[fanjolina]

Leave. Now. You and your DCs deserve better. And you owe it your DCs to show them there is better.

[OrmIrian]

He sounds exhausting and demoralising I think you'd all be better off without him.

[elastamum]

It isnt easy but you can make a better life for yourself and your kids. You already work so you have an income which is one step in the direction of independence. I divorced my ex a year ago. Life is tough but there is no more shouting or conflict in my house and my ex is much nicer to the kids as they dont have to see him if they dont want to, so he has to behave. good luck with your choices, be strong, there is a better life for you out there

[Resignedtotheinevitable]

Exhausting and demoralising says it all really.

Truly hideous day. Long and pointed sulks all afternoon. I'm going to tell my DDs never to marry a man who sulks. Anyhow, eventually I ask him what the matter is, in a moderate and reasoned way. He tells me there is nothing the matter. I said I'd never seen him behave like that with a member of his family. He says that his family have never behaved as I behave.

So I asked him what it is that I've done, and he tells me that he is cross with me for being "arrogant and wasteful". Apparently I am arrogant for not listening to him and the wasteful bit is a reference to the Christmas food again.

I compounded it by taking the DCs to see a film today ("Can't they watch a dvd at home"). Followed by calling me a fucking hypocrite for buying them a fizzy drink at the cinema.

I actually hid the fizzy drink cartons because I knew he'd be cross but he found out anyway. The issue was that I invited one of DS's friends who asked for a fizzy drink at the cinema and I felt mean about saying no. We don't normally allow fizzy drinks - usually it's water or fruit juice or milk. Hence why he thinks I'm a hypocrite.

Honestly he has no need to worry about money so I don't know why he's doing this and I feel so utterly sad and alone.

[Resignedtotheinevitable]

I forgot to say that I tried to go to work today. Popped in but within an hour all the DCs were on the phone in floods of tears. Massive fall-out due to DD1 not showing him any respect and swearing at him. I don't know why she swears at him, but she does. Rushed back to try to pour oil on troubled waters.

[fanjolina]

Boot him out. Tell him he can come back if he stops being such a sourpuss. Actually forget that - don't let him back. He is making your DCs' lives a misery too. That is NOT GOOD.

[sincitylover]

This sounds uncannily similar to life with my exh. We have now been split for 3.5 years and generally things are vastly improved. he has quickly moved on to a new victim partner.

I (and one of his female friends) suspect he has Aspergers and is certainly extremely self obsessesed and narcisstic.

He does still try it on when he has the dcs - ie ringing and haranguing me about them. And had a particularly fraught relationship with DS1 (now 13) their clashes seem very similar to what you have described.

Their behaviour is never up to scratch according to him and I was always not up to scratch in the household arena. He was always moaning about doing socialble things as they cost money and wasteful. However most Fridays spent drinking till the early hours with his work colleagues were not of course.

The no sex thing also the same.

He also never really wanted marriage and children and now has 4 two with me and two with new p.

I don't miss him and wish I had been brave enough to get out years earlier as his behaviour has had a long lasting effect on me and possibly dcs.

HTH

[sincitylover]

And RTTE being with him totally wore me down - I face different challenges as a single parent but everything much better without him.

I still have to handle him due to dealings with dcs but at least its not 24/7 misery

[MrsGuyOfGisbourne]

The CrackFox summarised it. It is incredibly difficult tho' to break free. A friend was in a similar position, tho' completely cowed for years, but managed to break free, and now, although financially strapped with small children she is FREE and 2 of the 3 the DCs are out of a damaging home. (Unfortunately the eldest aged 9 was completely dominated byt the dad - Stockholm Syndrome - and believes the mum was to blame, because the dad had totally indoctrinated him Unless you act now, DD1 will leave home as soon as she can and you will risk estrangement from her. You are in a unenviable position, but please break free while you can and while the DC can benefit from positive change.
Hugs.

[STIDW]

Whoa.. hold on. A decision to leave shouldn't be based on amateur psychology. There is no agreement that Stockholm Syndrome even exists.

"Care should be taken when the issue is one of novel psychiatric conditions for which there is an uncertain evidence base or a condition, such as ?battered woman syndrome?, ?false memory syndrome?, ?Stockholm syndrome? or ?sick building syndrome?, that may be recognised by the courts but for which there are no recognised diagnostic criteria or no general agreement to the syndrome?s nature or even agreement as to its existence." (Guidance issued by the Royal College of Psychiatrists scoping group to it's members recently)

[FrankieGoesToYorkshire]

A decision to leave can be based on the fact that this man rants at the family. That the OP can never get anything right. That this man is always right.

That he said his own daughter is vile and should be put into care.

Any man who said that about my daughter would be out. How do you think that makes her feel? No wonder she is angry.

A decision to leave can be based on anything at all. One adult does not own another adult. And these children's lives are being made an absolute misery by this man.

Do you need a psychiatrist's say-so now to leave an abusive man and make a new, calm life for your children?

I grew up with a man like this. I spent my childhood terrified. I now hate my mother because she did nothing about it. No-one needs a psychiatrist to say that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Life is very short. Your children only get one childhood. Why do you stay? What's in it for you? And what's in it for your children?

Life on your own with your children is fantastic. Take it from one who did leave.

xxxx