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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Links to useful sites for advice on getting through/dealing with an affair please?

42 replies

JemintheGraveyardwithghouls · 29/10/2009 16:14

My sister has recently found out her DP has been having an affair.

They are trying to talk things through.
He 'cannot' give up the other woman. He admits he is in a mess. OW is 20 years his junior...he is 60! ffs...anyway...

My sister is in am absolute turmoil, trying to find her way through this. She is willing to talk, to work things out, to not give up on their life and future plans right now I guess- she found out on Monday, so is relatively recent. She is coming to spend the day with me and the kids this Saturday.

Any sites anyone found useful please?

She is a brilliant person...it is so distressing to see her try to navigate her way through this...any sites you found useful would be greatly appreciated, thankyou.

OP posts:
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Jeminthecellar · 06/11/2009 16:48


Y'see, this is one of the reasons I kept coming back to this site.

Sis- I am glad you posted- I think from what you said last night it might be a good idea to keep posting? There ARE paople who have gone through similar things and who ARE willing to give support. xx
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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 06/11/2009 15:46

Jemsis - I am so glad it helped. Now you've found us, do come on here for support - or even just to lurk for a while. I'll warn you though, it is pretty addictive!

When you are going through this, it can feel very lonely and isolating. Please rest assured, you have my complete support and like so many others on here, will do my very best to help. Take good care of yourself and hold your head up high. X

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jemsis · 06/11/2009 15:25

Thank you for sharing your story. So much is what I could have written - the distancing of himself and the anger at small things - and the changes in thoughtful small actions. Since he has 'dished the dirt' he seems to have rediscovered how to load (and unload) the dishwasher!
I am so glad your story has a happy ending I don't know what will happen with mine.

Yes your are absolutly right my sister is brilliant - a real diamond.

Very very best wishes x

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Jeminthecellar · 04/11/2009 18:35

WhenWill- that post was just brilliant and really powerful- thnkyou so much, the insights of you and others on this thread will I'm sure help her.
I know she has started to read it.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 04/11/2009 14:55

Jemin/sis - Sorry, have been at work this morning, but I've cut and pasted that post, but have adapted it a little for your situation, as it was originally for another poster - shows you how common this is - in fact there is another thread at the moment about this very practice:

Try to "timeline" when you first started feeling unsettled - or last felt genuine joy. It will really help your understanding of what has been happening to you in recent times.

People about to embark on an affair engage in a practice which I had never heard about before, but since joining Mumsnet, I have seen it over and over again. They start to withdraw from the marriage, to create a "gap" to allow the affair to happen. My H had been in contact with OW for about 10 months before he actually agreed to have an affair with her. It's all part of the justification process, so that when they finally do start a proper affair, they've managed to reduce their marriage from what it once was.

Although we'd had ups and downs over 24 years, we were actually in a very loving "up" phase just before OW got in contact. In fact, the last time I remember feeling genuine happiness was exactly the month before OW sent an E mail to him at work...

The basic details of my H's affair are that at a time when he was feeling old, grey, overweight and very unhappy at work, a former colleague, who had made it very clear years earlier that she wanted an affair with him, got in touch via work E mail. By this time, she was married herself and was purporting to be very happy. He wouldn't have dreamt of telling me about these E mails, because of this woman's previous (unsuccessful) efforts - he thought it would create a very difficult conversation with me (and boy, did he hate those) and of course, he completely deluded himself that this was harmless.

A fairly innocent exchange of E mails took place over a few months, during which time she reminded H of how handsome and gorgeous everyone had always thought he was, how dynamic and popular etc etc. This must have been like nectar to my H at the time - and I can absolutely understand how addictive this was. I've had to be honest myself here and admit that had someone come along like that for me at certain times in my life, I might well have encouraged it.

Gradually, barriers got broken down though - the move to texting - repeated requests from her to meet up, met with very wishy-washy refusals from him that meant she would ask again. It took her 10 months in all to persuade him to meet and by then, he had managed to create the gap necessary in what had always been a very loving marriage.

I have E mails from around the start of that 10 month pre-affair period and I was saying to friends then that I was feeling unsettled and unhappy, but couldn't put my finger on why this was. On the face of it, everything was pretty good, especially my business, which was in a real "up phase". I put it down to autumn blues, a bit of a career crisis (business was great but I wasn't really enjoying work any more), worry about secondary school choices etc. - but absolutely not my relationship with my H.

His withdrawal was pretty subtle, you see.

Always a lazy and untidy man, he became even lazier - and previously when I had pointed this out, he would apologise, agree he hadn't done as much as he should have done etc. But around this time, he started to get very defensive when challenged about how come the house was a tip when he'd been off all day and I'd been at work. I remember several times, asking how come I was the bad guy here?

There were other little things - in general, he is an earlier riser than me - and on hearing me get up, he would always put the kettle on and bring up a cup of tea. That stopped. I know these sound like little things - and they are reasonably subtle, so wouldn't necessarily register.

If off for a few days or at weekends, apart from getting very little done, preferring to spend hours on the PC or asleep on the sofa, he wouldn't shave - or some days, even shower. Then, after behaving like a lazy oaf all day and looking awful, he would ask to make love and sound disappointed when I didn't want to. He recognises now that all this was pretty manipulative behaviour...and quite obviously I wouldn't have wanted sex with him after a day like that!

What also complicated this situation in our case was that he was feeling very, very depressed at work. He'd had 2 really big setbacks close together and hated the job he was doing. He could see no end in sight and he was very, very down. We recall now that I was extremely supportive of him at this time and we talked a lot about how he could improve his lot. I felt very sorry for him and admired him for getting on with it and not taking sick leave. The reason I'm saying all this is because at least some of his behaviour could be attributed to feeling so down about work...

During the "active phase" of his affair (4 months in total), this withdrawal became much more overt - his behaviour at home was actually appalling, hence me confronting him in the end. He seemed stressed all the time, got disproportionately angry about the slightest thing, picked fault in everything and everyone and withdrew more and more from family life. We always eat together as a family - and mealtimes became a regular battleground, with him getting angry at the kids' table manners, or alternatively, he would "tune out" of conversations and stare into space.

He didn't want sex as frequently - and frankly I had no desire whatsoever to sleep with this angry, lazy man.

At this time, our lives were incredibly busy and I was so caught up in the daily grind of raising the children and running my business that I didn't spend much time pondering what was happening to him.

But there were some real clues, looking back - and often these clues were about how I was feeling. My H only met up with OW twice (she lived miles away) and during the week he met her for the first time, I felt something I recognised even then, as acute stress. I was however preparing for a fairly significant business event and so naturally, I was preoccupied and fretting about it, but I actually remember saying to a friend that I thought the stress I was feeling was disproportionate. I remember having to drive the children that week to a couple of unfamiliar places and taking extra care driving, because I felt so disorientated and almost "out of body". Again though, I put it down to work stress and trying to keep the family show on the road.

This also happened a couple of months later, and the day he met her for the second and final time, I had a terrible day - shouting at the children and just feeling generally awful. I've never suffered from PMT, but it was like others describe it! This time, there was no huge work stress going on - and I couldn't understand it.

About 7 weeks before I found out, we were having lunch one day, when he commented that I was eating noisily. I'd once seen a play when an adulterous man had made the same comment to his wife and a lightbulb went on.

A week later, he was behaving in a particularly arsey fashion and so that night, I sat him down and confronted him about his behaviour and also why he "just wasn't into me at the moment." His eyes welled up with tears and he agreed he was behaving badly. I asked him was he having an affair - and he laughed at the very suggestion. I've got to say at that point, I too wondered who on earth would have an affair with him, looking the way he did.

He told me how much he adored me, how I had always been the love of his life and always would. He attributed all the awful behaviour to feeling very depressed and stressed at work and agreed to visit our GP if this did not improve.

It didn't - the anger carried on more or less as normal, but he had by that time stopped finding fault with everything I did.

About 2 weeks before I found out, he was monumentally insensitive about a business setback I had endured (unfortunately for me, throughout the affair, my business suffered one setback after another) and at that point, I remember thinking that he wasn't the man for me any longer.

In summary, the "distancing" is something people do when they are trying to find the justification for an affair. Knowing him as I do, I'm not in the least surprised that it took him 10 months to give himself permission. He'd never done anything like this before, had always thought that he loved me more than I loved him and we had enjoyed a very happy and loving marriage. He says now and I believe him - if OW had E mailed him and quickly suggested no strings sex, he would have run a mile. His needs in this situation really weren't about sex primarily - and were more about needing to feel adored and special at a time when he felt old, tired and out of potential. Plus, he found the sex with OW very dissatisfying and although he cared about her feelings, her personality and behaviour had started to grate terribly - he started to realise that she was not a nice person at all and found some of her attitudes and beliefs abhorrent to his own values.

The awful behaviour and the stress he endured while the affair was ongoing was because unlike a lot of people, he was rubbish at "compartmentalising" the affair. He actually hated feeling like such a shit and the OW started making lots of demands and behaving with increasing volatility. He looks back on that time now and says he has no happy memories whatsoever - he felt awful about what he had done, but because the OW was still telling him how wonderful he was, it was still pretty addictive.

Fortunately for us, he didn't fall in love with OW and although it has often been hard for me to accept this, he never stopped loving me. By the time I found out, he was trying everything to end it with OW, while allowing her to preserve some dignity. He was scared that if he ended it, there would be a backlash, but he also accepts too that he was such a moral coward in those days, it was much easier for him if she "sacked" him, so he kept refusing to meet up again and urged her to re-commit to her H. On discovery, he gave her up instantly and unequivocally, telling her that he wanted no contact with her ever again. He did try to do this kindly, but realised by this time that he needed to be final.

Since then, we have rebuilt our marriage and learned so much more about eachother than we had in the previous 24 years. It's taught me that good people do have affairs and that at a certain time of life (like the BIL in this case) people are especially vulnerable and in need of escape from life. That affairs happen to good marriages too - it so often isn't because anything was wrong with the primary relationship - apart from familiarity and the boredom that often assails long marriages.

All my H's worst faults throughout our marriage - selfishness, laziness and emotional retardation have vanished. He underwent counselling and this helped enormously. I can honestly say that he is the husband I always dreamed of, and I love him very much. I have also changed - I am no longer complacent, I put our marriage first all the time (within certain boundaries), knowing that our children will be happiest within a secure, loving marriage.
I also worry far less about rubbish - the housework or some minor business problem. This gives you a hell of a perspective.

If your marriage is worth fighting for and love is still there, go for it. But don't, please don't sacrifice your self for it. When you are in "fight" mode like Jem's sister, your dignity is terribly important - and can only be suppressed for so long without causing long-term damage to your esteem. I realise that my case was very different from the point of discovery, but I am old enough and wise enough now to know myself - and I have a far greater duty to myself than my marriage.

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Jeminthecellar · 03/11/2009 20:03

Hey if she ckecks in she will get the post...

Thankyou so much. x

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Jeminthecellar · 03/11/2009 20:03

Nah you fool, he he I HAVE a wonderful sis!!

I have just sent her a link to this thread.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/11/2009 19:52

Jemin - I'll come on here later with a cut and paste of that timeline post - if you can hang on for a bit before sending her the thread.

You are a wonderful sis.

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Jeminthecellar · 03/11/2009 19:44

I find it difficult to explain her choices, yet when she explains everything to me, I totally understand why she is making the decisions she is. I suppose it is because to explain another persons choices is to do so second hand- however I must say I do totally respect what she is trying to do.

Yes, she has started to eat a bit, and look after herself, thankfully.

I think she is trying to keep him talking. ie- to throw him out...he would go to OW...how easy...as in...if he just left, he would not have to confront the events and feelings that led to this affair. As it is he has to come home and talk through all he is feeling, all his actions...and she is also wanting to make him aware of what he has to lose if he leaves her- she needs to remind him, of their 30 year history.

They have known each other for over 30 years...

Whenwill..... she is doing a 'timeline', and I have seen you suggest that to others in others posts- she has identified to herself points....and she has said that she has felt unhappy in a general way the past year...which echo a post of yours that I read...but she could not put her finger on it...but looking back she has certainly made sense from it all.

I just think she is showing real courage to confront the situation the way she is...she knows this arrangement is only for the interim...I think it will be until she has to nake a decision, cos lets face it, he is going between the 2 of them, even though he is really unhappy too, she is my sister and it is her perspective I care about. I do actually like her partner, I always have.Still.

To be honest, I think I shall e-mail this thread to her...because the people on here have experience of what she is going through, and I can only think that is a good thing.

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geekdad · 03/11/2009 12:55

Just want to echo WhenWillI's comment about the long term effects of allowing her DP to continue seeing the OW. She's certainly right that it's OK to do so in the first instance to give herself some breathing space while she's feeling fragile, so she doesn't have to make major, possibly life-changing decisions. But, I allowed the same situation to continue for three months. The effect of that was pernicious, and interfered with my life so badly, that I wish I had just asked her to leave.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 02/11/2009 19:14

Hi Jem. Thanks for the update. Your sis is probably still in shock and at the moment, this seems like the only option she can take.

But doing this over a sustained period of time will rot away at her self-esteem and is not to be recommended.

Does she think she can talk to the OW in this case? I say that because I remember another poster on here (Maturer, Overdraft?) whose husband was vacillating, so she made it her business to get inside the OW's life. Made OW see her as a real person with thoughts and feelings, instead of a faceless, one-dimensional obstacle. Seem to recall she even spoke to OW's family too! It all had the desired effect. Again, this all depends on the OW and whether she is likely to feel any guilt or empathy.

There are many more stories on here though (Counting is another successful example) about husbands who only came to their senses when they really thought they had lost their wife. This means acting strong and tough, even if it's the last thing she's feeling inside. There's something very "final" about the sight of possessions in bin-bags and also hearing about a trip to the solicitor.

On a more practical level, how is she bearing up day-to-day? What do the children know - and is she eating and taking care of herself?

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countingto10 · 02/11/2009 17:49

Jeminthecellar, I really think your sister should start taking some control in her life. I know it is difficult but I felt much better when I made my DH pack his stuff (in bin bags )and sought legal advice (my DH actually moved in with OW - I had no idea as he told me he was staying with mates to get some space ). I had 4DC and our business was really struggling etc and my DH was going through some sort of mid crisis/breakdown but I could not and would not let him "rub my nose in it".

I change the answerphone message to just from me eg so he knew I was moving on with my life. He left OW and we were at our 1st Relate session within a week of me finding out who she was.

I know it is hard and a lot of people were surprised when I took DH back.

It's good your sister has you, my own sister was wonderful to me when my DH left, helping with the kids in the evening etc after she had finished work.

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Jeminthecellar · 02/11/2009 17:41

Hi everyone-

I have read your posts, over again, and it matches pretty much what my sister is saying to me...in that...it ISN'T that simple....she is really trying to understand what is happening...they are talking more now than they have done for the past year..he has some issues that have become apparent, but at the end of the day, for the time being, she is willing to accept that he will continue seeing the OW. He stayed with OW overnight on Saturday, and today he is taking her out somewhere, but he is coming home afterwards. My sis has a meeting in a city and will come home late.

As an aside, I do personally find this difficult, as I know I just could not bear for my DH to go between me and OW, but as I have already said, she is a fantastic person, and if they can work through this, she wants to try to do that.

I just don't think things can go on like this for much longer, because she is literally on her knees with it all...I think she is hoping that if they keep talking, if he keeps coming home, if he can't give her up too, then that's positive.

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thetattooedmagpie · 02/11/2009 10:59

Thanks for your thoughts When Will. I do find your situation really baffling too - I'm not surprised its been hard to work through.

I've been thinking a lot about things this weekend - its been a year since the affair started, so a significant time. I feel part of me is 'scared ' to let the affair and OM go as it will then feel like it didn't mean anything to me and it really did. But I can't live in the past - I've got to put it all behind me now.

Its time I really moved on and I suspect that spending a lot of time reading and re-reading threads on here and other info on the net may be preventing me from letting go and focussing on the future.

So I'm not going to post for a while and reduce my MN habit to see how I feel. I have found it very helpful and I hope some of my posts have been helpful too. I daresay a new crisis will loom and I'll be back at some point !

So I just wanted to wish you and everyone else struggling with relationships good luck with your situations and your futures.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 31/10/2009 17:08

Thanks Tattoed - a lot to reflect on there. Perhaps he too got caught up in the nostalgia and for a while, believed that everything in life would be perfect if he could be with his one true love? The trouble is, the older we get, the more ties we have - and it is very difficult to give up on the things we've worked hard for and enjoy.

Like you, I suspect he did love his wife - and probably more than perhaps he realised. I often think that people caught up in these relationships rewrite history a bit, for themselves as much as anyone - and convince themselves that they are unhappier than they actually are. So when he told you and others he was unhappy, that seemed like the truth to him then.

Plus for him, it would have meant the loss of daily and normal contact with his children - a loss that women who leave don't usually have to face. I've often wondered whether fewer women would have affairs/leave their marriages if they thought that this would also mean losing their kids. It's also why I feel particularly sorry for male victims of infidelity - they very often lose far more than their wife.

I'm glad that you wish them well and feel no ill will towards his wife. I'm sure this is how I'd feel too, were I in your shoes. As I was saying on another thread the other day, it baffles me why some OW hate the wives so much (and in my own case, even my daughter FGS, but curiously, not my son) but I do think that some women actually hate other females and you seem a million miles away from that. It proves the point I was making the other day, not all OW and OM are the same - they are not all victims or targets and they are not all evil liars.

I've often wondered what the OW in my case thought my marriage was like - unlike your OM, my DH said he would never leave and when she asked him if was he happy in his marriage, he replied that he was. I've seen an E mail where she acknowledges that too. But it was also evident from her behaviour during the affair and afterwards that she thought that she was so special that she could have any man she wanted - and that even a man who said he wasn't going to leave and loved his wife, would leave eventually, because no man could resist her permanently!

She asked him repeatedly whether he would ever leave me and he always said no. But he also added "but in any case, I couldn't leave my children" - in his view at the time, he thought this would just strengthen the original refusal, but he now accepts my belief, which was that it suited him for her to believe the kids were the stumbling block. For me, one of the things I hate is that she still thinks he was only staying for the children.

In my more rational moments, I realise that women like her are unlikely to have happy lives and I know that this woman had no old friendships and very shallow "work friendships" - I know how much my life has been enhanced by female friendship. She's also in a dead-end job and if she is to be believed, detested her husband (tho suspect that was actually bollocks). Having said that, he's already been unfaithful to her twice, so I don't know how she squared that with being Miss Irrestible

I understand also why you want them to make a success of their marriage, because it somehow validates the pain. I really hope you and your DP make it too Tattoed - and I hope you are either in love with him or will find yourself falling in love with him again. You both deserve that.

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thetattooedmagpie · 31/10/2009 14:52

"I have often wanted to ask you what feelings you have towards OM's wife? What do you now believe were his true feelings towards her - and how do you view her decision to stay with him? "

Been reflecting a bit more about this.

I know OM did love his DW but didn't like his relationship and how it was going. he used to say he thought he loved her but wasn't happy and didn't want to be with her anymore. I guess they were stuck in a rut and had drifted apart with resentment building up on both sides, just like me an DP. I know he loved his kids loads.

I think he liked the idea of being in love with me but not the reality and, obviously, not enough to leave her and risk giving it a go with me when it might not have worked out. I know he was still sleeping with her. I know he felt taken for granted and unloved and he felt old and tired. I also know he loved lots of aspects of his life which he would have lost if he had left ( don't want to go into too many details - but material type things that he wouldn't have been able to afford on his own ). I also know he's basically a straightforward and uncomplicated man and it wouldn't have taken much to make him happy.

To start with I couldn't believe a) he had asked to go back and b)she had agreed to take him back because obviously I'd seen how he'd been with me and knew the things he had said. So I was convinced that he hadn't been honest with her about the details of the affair - for example she had no proof that we had actually had sex and I don't know if he told her he thought he loved me and wanted to leave her etc. So I assumed that she stayed with him because she hadn't had the full story. However, I don't actually think that now - she may not know but she may know and have chosen to forgive him as my DP did. I really don't know as I've had no contact but the upshot to me and DP is the same.

I just hope now that they are together again that they can make a good job of patching it up and moving forward. I don't like to think they are going to be miserable for the rest of their lives. Maybe its given them a kick up the backside too and they are rebuilding a better future aswell.

Ultimately, I understand why he made the decision he did and I have forgiven him for the hurt it caused - so I just hope it was the right decision for them now or all this pain and anguish will have been for nothing. Cos, lets face it, there's no going back now.

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RumourOfAHurricane · 31/10/2009 09:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ChocHobNob · 31/10/2009 09:38

This website might be of some help ... marriage builders

I honestly think the first step of recovery is NO CONTACT between the wayward partner and the other woman/man. Until he stops contact with this OW, they will not be able to move forward at all. On the website above, there are check lists you go through. Some may not agree with it, but I found some of it helpful.

Your sister is lucky to have you to confide in xxx

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thetattooedmagpie · 31/10/2009 09:16

Just wanted to add something - I know it sounds like I've been incredibly thick and naive. In fact, I probably have been but there comes a point when someone tells you something every day for 6 months, it ties in with all you already know about them and they also tell their friends and your friends that they want to leave their wife to be with you, that in the end you think 'actually, it might be true'.

I've stopped beating myself up about trying to find ' the truth ' in all this - I'll never know the truth about his marriage versus our relationship now so all I can do is accept it for what it was and how it felt and try to move on.

right really am off now

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thetattooedmagpie · 31/10/2009 08:47

Sorry this is a bit rushed

I think its very true what you say about old flames being the most dangerous - because it harks back to an earlier age, the ' unfinished business ' element and that as you have history the trust is already there - you think you know what you are getting.

I accepted things he said as truth while I would have been sceptical of some random chancer who I had met through work. I'm actually very untrusting and cynical - which is why I think this has hit me so hard.

I'm not sure how I feel about OMs wife. On one side he obviously told me his marriage was over and that he would wait for me until I was ready and able to leave. He was sure that this was what he wanted and he wished we'd stuck it out with me more first time round. ( This all tied in with what I knew about him from our previous relationship - he adored me, but I thought we were too young to get serious ). We also have many mutual friends and he has told them he is unhappy in his marriage. And he'd been unfaithful before. So all this would suggest that he wasn't very happy in his primary relationship.

After it ended he told that he thought me and him being togther was what he wanted but faced with the reality he wasn't able to go through with it and give up on his marriage. He wanted to try again.

So I can only assume that he still loves his wife and is happy in that relationship - or at least happy enough to give it another try. He also told me is family and her family had put a lot of pressure on him to try again. I honestly don't know how much detail his wife knows about the affair. I know she thinks I'm nothing and unimportant.

I do feel a certain amount of guilt towards her now I know the truth - if I'd known that he still had feelings towards her I wouldn't have got involved.

Could probably type more but got to get on

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 30/10/2009 18:38

Also sorry for the hijack. Tattoed - as usual I really appreciate what you have had to say this afternoon. It can't have been easy at all.

I understand a bit more about your situation now. I wondered whether a few insights of mine might help?

When I started reading about infidelity, I read that affairs with old flames are indeed the most dangerous of all. It's to do with projecting our younger selves on to the current relationship and we are all capable of deluding ourselves that if things had been different all those years ago, we would have had a much happier life with the ex. I imagine that this must have been particularly true if you felt that your DP had withdrawn from your relationship.

It's great that you and DP can agree on why you were so vulnerable to an affair. This sounds like it has been a great opportunity for you to finally get the relationship you want and need with DP - and I do think that both parties need to agree on how they can make their relationship affair-proof in the future.

I understand how an hour a week of counselling wouldn't have touched the sides on your grief. It's good he's having counselling too. I did the same sort of sums as him actually. My DH had at that point given me 23 years of complete fidelity and love - and he behaved like an arse once. Since discovery, he's been the husband I always dreamed of having too and like you, our relationship is now immeasurably better.

I wish I could switch from negative thoughts as well as your DP seems to. I think you're really wise to keep checking if he's really okay too. Sometimes these things have a habit of crashing down on someone at a later date.

And I understand fully that you never stopped loving your DP and that if anything, you love him more now. But are you "in love" with him too?

I also applaud your "warts and all" approach to this and your reluctance to grab at external crutches like Prozac. I think it's better to live through the pain than anaesthetise ourselves.

I have often wanted to ask you what feelings you have towards OM's wife? What do you now believe were his true feelings towards her - and how do you view her decision to stay with him?

Jem - sorry for the hijack again, but hope you have a good day with your sister tomorrow. Do let us know how she is doing and whether we can help at all.

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thetattooedmagpie · 30/10/2009 16:26

Really sorry for the hijack by the way.

Just thought of something else. Counsellor asked DP how he was coping yesterday and he said he does still have moments when it hits him - there are a lot of trigger points around now - but said he allows himself a wallow and maybe a few tears but then thinks, I can't change it, its happened, its in the past and I am not going to allow it to ruin my future and then he pushes it out of his mind and thinks about something bright and cheerful and nice we have done.
He's a pretty simple bloke really - I'm the anxious one who over thinks everything.

Right I really will go now. Jen - good luck to your sister

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thetattooedmagpie · 30/10/2009 16:05

before I start, can I just say to geekdad - nothing I said in my last post was meant as a criticism of how you or anyone else handles things - just a personal reflection on my experience.

When Will - thanks. TBH I do feel vunerable posting but hope it does help someone, somewhere to share. I realise that I do tend to post in a one dimensional way and focus on recovery from being dumped rather than on the more positive aspects of my life - so maybe I've come across as a bit self absorbed and ungrateful ! I've never been brave enough to do my own OP and give all the story.

Anyway, to address some of the points you raised. Physically and emotionally there was no way I could have surpressed my feeling of grief in the early days. Counselling did help but it took a while for the appointments to come through and they were only for an hour a week - my grief was 24/7. So although I got some 'protected' space to talk abut my feelings, they couldn't be contained in that time and space.

I never meant to rub my DPs nose in it - but it was out of my control and I think that was obvious to him. I was never playing games or trying to play the sympathy card. I was just reacting and in free fall. He saw this and realised it would be futile to try to ask me not to.

DP did discover the affair - but I didn't keep him hanging. I told him I was planning to leave more or less straight away. But then, of course OM had a change of heart and ended it.

I've not posted about it before, but DP went through all the expected emotions on discovery - anger, pain, grief etc. We both cried a lot and talked endlessly. So in terms of expressing how he feels, he has talked a lot and is in counselling. I do worry that he hasn't worked it through enough and that one day it will hit him, but there are no signs so far.

I asked him about those early days when Gonna was posting about her situation. He's a practical man and he just did the sums - he looked at all my good points and what he got out of our relationship and compared them against the bad thing I had done and decided on balance that he wanted us to stay together. Once he's decided this, he made a decision to forgive me and, if he was going to forgive me, he had to forgive me as I was ( ie : heartbroken and grieving ) not as he wanted me to be. And that's what he did. No point in pretending I was okay when I quite clearly wasn't - but if he was going to forgive, then that is what he had to forgive not an idealised picture of me.

I expect my pain and grief did( and do ) cause him pain. I have asked him many times if he wants me to leave or minds me talking about it - he always says what's the point in burying ,just talk it through and I'll help you get over it.

With regards to the OM. Yes, it would be a lie to say I don't have any positive or loving feelings towards him - he's been in my life for nearly 30 years and I always imagined at some point we would end up together so its a really big thing to get over - that our friendship is over for ever and that I will never be able to speak to him or see him again. I understand that I am in a period of bereavement and that it will take time to work through and I would happily accept DPs criticism if I was mooning about being sorry for myself - but I am trying everything I can to work through it - counselling, self improvement, rebuilding life with DP, making plans for the future. I don't know what else I can do other than keep trying and let nature take its course. What's the alternative - get myself on Prozac and just lie if he asked me if I'm okay ? I can't do that.

With regards to my feelings to DP - the irony is that I never stopped loving DP, but thought in the years that ran up to the affair that he had stopped loving me and wanted out. He didn't cope well when the DCs arrived and became more and more distant despite me desperatley trying to hold it all together. In the end I just concluded that he was doing that crap bloke thing, where they want out but want you to do it so they look like the good guy and you look like the bad girl. And that's obviously when the affair happened - I know I didn't react well but at the time it seemed like a good option and had an inevitability about it.

What I do know is that without the affair, our relationship would have eroded into a ball of resentment - it was heading that way - and I expect we would have split eventually in unpleasant cirumstances. As it is, the affair has given us a second chance - I honestly don't know if we will make it in the long run as I think its still too early, but at least we have cleared the old crap out of the relationship. The challenge now is to make a new one that fullfils us both.

If I've given the impression that I don't love DP then that is wrong - I love him very, very much. I just needed him to show me more in actions than words. But I never stopped loving him - I just thought he no longer loved or wanted me and that I should move on. I know I cocked it up big time and I have to live with that.

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geekdad · 30/10/2009 14:58

Jemin - it was difficult to deal with, but at the time I was reeling around and didn't know my arse from my elbow. It took me some weeks before I could start to think clearly, as WhenWill correctly surmised. By the way, WhenWill - you consistently have written thoughtful and insightful posts: you remind me of my SIL (that's a complement - she has a mind like a steel-trap when it comes to relationships).

I'm not sure about not telling others. That's fine as long as your sister feels that she has enough people to lean on. I didn't tell my closest friends, or even my mum for weeks. My self-esteem was so low that I somehow felt ashamed. Being cuckolded can have that effect I think. I wish that I had told more people because once I had and could talk it over with my friends and relatives, things started to improve. On the other hand if people are going to judge your DP then that is not really going to be helpful to either of you. I found it surprising which of my friends turned out to be helpful and which were just interested in apportioning blame.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 30/10/2009 14:07

Thanks Jemin. Also wanted to say that your sis is wise not to tell others about it at this stage. Others' views can be really unhelpful. No-one knows what it's really like inside someone's marriage and also, people who haven't been through this tend to project what they think they would do in this situation. Unfortunately, this is one of those where no-one really knows until it happens to them. You are doing all the right things - being non-judgemental and supporting her in what ever action she takes. This is essential right now.

Also, I'm interested in the cliches he's coming out with. When someone has been lying and deceiving for this long (even 4 months is long enough to form a habit), being honest and straightforward is difficult. People in your BIL's situation get used to a web of lies - and many of those lies are to himself. If he has generally been an honest, straightforward person in the past, it will still take a while for him to start being REALLY honest and truthful.

Your sis should watch out for these lies - he will say a lot of things that don't really stack up. Some of his lies will be self-presevation and not wanting to burn his bridges back to your sis - some of them will be so as not to hurt her any more than she is - some of them will be to minimise some of the awful things he has done/said with OW - and some of them will be extraordinary lies he's been telling himself. Sometimes if someone tells a lie frequently enough too, they become truths to the person - but they are what I call "learned memories".

He owes it to her to be really honest - anything else is denying her choices for the future.

Something else you can do to help her esteem at the moment is to praise her as you have done here - and also praise her powerful instincts, as she suspected something was up. I always think it must be so much more difficult for people who genuinely didn't suspect a thing, as you'd be forever mistrusting your own judgement afterwards.

I agree it would be helpful to show her this thread. I wish I had known about Mumsnet when my own crisis happened. I wanted all the information I could get and stumbled across this by accident a few months down the line.

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