Dads and access to children following divorce

[Gunnerbean]

I'm just trying to get some accurate advice here for my brother in law.

He has been divorced from his wife for a few years now. They have two children (now 7 and 9)who his ex wife has always allowed him to see ever since they first split up. He has been sporadic with his access and his commitment at times (and no one is trying to condone that) but even through this she has never had an issue with letting him see them and they've always been happy to go. He has also always provided for them well financially, and still does.

However, about 18 months ago his ex met a new man on the internet who moved in with her almost immediately. It soon became apparent that he was jealous, untrusting ,controlling and manipulative and the children started calling him "daddy" within a matter of a few weeks and referring to thier real dad by his first name only. The new man didn't work (and when he did it was always from home on internet poker) he also eventually insisted that my BIL's ex wife gave up work too as he couldn't trust her there so she was always at home and she is now never to be seen without her new man at her side. She has also cut all ties with her family and friends. This man also has a daughter of his own who he is apparently not allowed to see - no one seems to know why although we'd all love to know.

Anyway, that sets the scene.

The problem here is that the contact which the children were initally being allowed to have with their natural father (my BIL) after their mum met her new man got less and less and a couple of months ago it stopped completely. My BIL's ex wife sent a letter to his solicitor telling him that the children do not want to see him anymore. It has been made clear to him this is their choice and she is not willing to force them.

He is now reduced to trying to speak to them on the phone by phoning them when they are at their nan's house (his ex mother in law who is trying to facilitate what she can in order for them to keep some sort of contact). The older child will speak to him (but said later to her nan that she may get into trouble if her mum and "dad" find out that she has), the younger child will not speak to him saying he is scared of him (my BIL has never done anything to either child to warrant them feeling scared of him). When asked why he is scared of him or what has happened to make him feel that way he just replies "I don't know".

My BIL desperately wants to re-establish proper access visits with the children again but doesn't know what to do. He's not entitled to legal aid but his ex wife is. He is remarried and has another child now and is worried that if he goes through a long drawn out court battle it could ruin him financially and although he might get access reinstated, his ex could still say at the end of it that she doesn't mind the children seeing him but it's them who don't want to see him so he will be back to square one.

It seems both the ex wife and the children have been totally braiwashed by the new "dad" who seems to be a cross between Father Christmas and God. There have been several odd things that have happened since he has been on the scene, for example, twice their tyres have been slashed and twice the new man has blamed it on the children's father without any proof and has told the children that it was their dad who did it. My BIL hasn't touched their tyres and would enver put the children's safety in jeopardy. The new man sent a threatening text to my BIL who informed the police about it and they went and cautioned the new man.

The children are also encouraged to use the new man's surname (even though they haven't chanaged their name officially) and when the younger child wrote his real dad's name on a painting he did at his nan's his older sister crossed it through and put the new man's surname and said he would be in trouble at home for using his real name.
There has also been talk about them moving abroad to live and when they were still seeing my BIL the children asked him if he would give his permission to let them go which he told them he wouldn't.

This man seems to have waded in and within a few months hijacked my BIL's children and just airbrushed him out of their lives and their mother is complicit in it all.

I'm really sorry for the long ramble but am upset that t he children are too young to understand how they are being manipulated. They adored their new stepmum and now can't see her. They also have a new half brother whose development they are totally missing out on. They are being totally denied a relationship with a whole half of their family.

I firmly believe that no parent has the right to take it upon themselves to deny their child the right to have a relationship with their absent parent unless there is a very compelling reason for it - like it would put their safety in severe danger. I can't believe what this woman is doing.

Has anyone got any ideas on what my BIL can do about this awful situation?

[Anagallisarvensis]

Hi. I just found this thread. My BIL has also had contact issues with his children, complicated because he was not on their birth certificates, didn't officially live with them because of benefit reasons (don't get me started) but in the end the court found in his favour regarding regular access which appears to be happening, thank God. There have been no recent posts on here for a while- I was just wondering how things were going. My kids are the same age as these children - it makes me sad to think that some of their peers are being abused in this way.

[Gunnerbean]

Thaks for this everyone, your words of support mean a lot.

I totally agree that's it's highly unlikely that her new man would let her go to counselling along but if she is getting legal aid (and we're not entirely sure about that) he's not daft enough to let her forfeit that. He'll probably just take her and wait outside the door for her.

I've written extensive notes for my BIL setting out all I know of the relationship in chronological order since it started 18 months ago. I'm quite prepared to swear an affadavit to state that all of it is absolutely true to the best of my knowledge (in fact a lot of what I know about him has come directly from her when she confided in me when they once fell out right at the start of their relationship) but I'm not sure that the inforamtion I've provided will be able to be taken into account or will have any legal weight.

My BIL seems to think that his solicitor wants concrete evidence - but how can we provide this?

I've even considered seeking my own legal advice about this and how it would be best for me and my mother to proceed to help out to best effect.

Also meant to say to Yerblert in my earlier post that I've mentioned the FNF branch meetings to my BIL. The nearest branch to us is about 35 miles away but he seemed interested and will try to get along there if time allows as he works long nights and long hours. At the moment he feels he's got the ball rolling with the mediation sessions and wants to focus on that for the time being. He's not ruling any form of help out though so thanks so much for all your advice so far ad the time you've put into giving it, it's been really great.

[frekkles]

a different perspective on this....... when i was young my natrual father was abusive and i was very scared of him. My mum left him when i was nine, and although i totally knew my own mind and didn't ever want to see him again i was forced to see him once a week. My sister and I eventually had to go to court to get the access stopped, it was a very long and difficult process. This was twenty years ago. Surely if the law protected the rights of an abusive father bak then, they should protect the rights of a non abusive one now?

good luck to all involved x

[Waspie]

I can offer no help as you already have had some fantastic advice, I just wanted to say that I hope your and your family will be able to resolve this whole awful situation.

I am not trying to scaremonger but this type of controlling relationship is linked to domestic violence, if not physically then emotionally and mentally. I am worried about the children's mother in this too.

I'd also repeat the advice of contacting social services if you know where this man came from.

[mumoverseas]

agree Freckle but given the information we've been given about her, its unlikely her new man will be happy to let her attend mediation as HE won't be in control.

[Freckle]

However, if she wants legal aid, she will have to do the same, i.e. attend mediation, and it won't look good for her if invited to attend the mediation session set up for his legal aid application and she refuses.

[mumoverseas]

him having to go to mediation is standard in order for him to get public funding (legal aid) He HAS to attend or he won't get public funding and his ex will be invited to attend but it doesn't matter if she doesn't go, he will still get the bit of paper he needs to progress his legal aid application. Positive step in the right direction. Fingers crossed for him. It may be a long process and won't be easy but he has to do it, he has been left no choice.

[Gunnerbean]

Just an update...

Spoke to my BIL and, thank god, he told me he's got Legal Aid so we've got no worries about money which is a relief. As part of the LA process he's now having to go through the whole mediation thing and is havig to go tomorrow on his own. He tells me he's not able to take anyone with him.

He says that his ex might be invited to attend the next session.

So we'll have to see what happens from here.

We're more hopeful now but are just a bit worried that all the evidence we have about his ex's unhealthy relationship with her new man and the detrimental effect it's having on the children will all be viewed as "heresay" and not taken into account.

We have to keep fighting for those children. After all, we are the only voice they have in all of this.

[yerblurt]

The children are aged 9+7 so they are NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING THIS DECISION.

A solicitors letter has no legal weight, all it is a regurgitation of the clients wishes. As she says "it's not in the child's best interests" - this is just legal speak and doesn't mean a fig.

It is correct that grandparents have no legal rights, it's a real shame but true.

The grandparents can become a party to any Children Act proceedings once started by completing and filing a C2 form requesting contact in their own right and to be joined as a party to the proceedings. Although personally I feel that it may complicate the issue at the moment.

The main battle is with the ex and the controlling partner.

Your BIL needs to act quickly.

Has he contacted FNF? The telephone helpline is open 6-10pm every night.

There will be a local branch nearby.

Dad should be completing his C1 form and request abridged service now I feel as the ex is clearly not acting in the children's best interests by unilaterally stopping contact with dad and the paternal family i.e. grandparents.

Please nag your BIL to act fast, it's understandable that he is feeling panicking but the situation will NOT get better by delay.

[Gunnerbean]

Thanks for that. It conirms what we already know; that it cannot possibly be by anyone of sound mind's reckoning, in these children's best interests for them to effectively cut all of their family members out of their lives in one hit.

I think they have been craty to offer my mum the option of visiting the children at home -but to me that is evidence of the way the new dad wants to control everything and to moitor everything that gets said.

I've been this all though and I've arrived at the conclusion that there has never, ever been a better time for my BIL to be seeking access to them again. There is a lot of evidence mounting against his ex, in terms of how her toxic relationship is coluding her judgement to the affect that it is having a seriously detrimental affect on his the children.

As far as I know it all went to Court when they first split up and all the usual Orders for access/maintenance were set up then. Granted, my BIL has been a bit lax on contact over the years but it could never be said that hasn't been a constant presence in their lives because he has. When I say lax, I mean sometimes letting them down, turning up late, not always doing anything very exciting with them etc (non one is condoning this) but he has never been unkind to them, failed to see them for weeks on end or forgotten their birthdays or anything like that. They absolutely love his new wife too who has always been exceptionally kind to them. His ex has always been happy for them to see him and it's only since the new man came on the scene that there's been any suggestion that the children don;t want to see him

The solicitors letter that she sent to her mohter seems to revolve around the fact that the access which she is facilitating with their real dad is quote "against the children's wishes".

However, my neice spoke to her real dad quite happily on the phone the other day because I heard her myself. There was certainly no suggestion that she was less than happy to do so.

In light of that, my question is at what age are children deemed in law to be able to "know their own minds" for want of a better term? What I'm trying to get at is their whole case here seems to hinge on the need for the children to not see their real dad because they (the children) don't want to. However, we all know that the grounds for this are extremely dubious due to the issues of control and manipulation with the "new dad". When, according to the law, is is deemed acceptable/allowable for a child to be able to make such a decision for themselves? 7 and 9 (but almost 8 and 10 in their cases) is surely far too young?

I think in this case someone (i.e. a judge)needs to listen to all the evidence ad make a decisions in the children's best interests.

The mother clearly has another agenda here (keeping her new man happy) and this in no small part has a huge bearing on this case and how her actions are affecting the children.

I'm hoping to call my BIL tonight and arrange to meet him to talk through the options.

Thanks again, I'll keep you all posted and will definitely mention Yerblurt's offer to my BIL too.

[mumoverseas]

something has to be done and sooner rather than later. Your BIL MUST make an application to the Court for a defined contact order without any further delay. Technically yes, the solicitor your mother saw is right in saying that grandparents have no rights however the solicitor should have also explained that grandparents CAN make an application for contact but would need to seek leave (permission) of the court first. However, bearing in mind your BIL NEEDS to apply for Contact hopefully when he gets a contact order (and he will, from what you have said although it may take some time) then hopefully your mother can be included in contact at that time. Please get him to take action now and to contact FNF as suggested by yerblurt.

[Freckle]

As there has never been any suggestion that the children's real father is a danger to them or that contact with him is not advisable, they may well have shot themselves in the foot. The court will want to know why facilitating contact with a biological father who clearly loves and cares for his children, is of no danger to them and has been a consistent presence in their lives means that nan has to lose contact with the children. It just doesn't make sense. The letter is evidence of a campaign to cut the real father out of the lives of the children.

[Gunnerbean]

Just to update you on the latest development with this situation...

This morning the children's nan has received a letter from her daughter's solicitor stating that because she has been facilitating contact with the chidlren's real father by telephone at her home that her contact to the children on Wednesday evenings is being withdrawn. She has been told that she can contact them by phone at their home or can visit them there.

The withdrawl of this access is also upsetting for me, becasue I won;t be able to see my neice and nephew and for my DS who now won't be abale to see his cousins. ot to mention sad for teh children because they love all of us dearly and thoroughly enjoy coming down on a Wednesday and won't be able to do that anymore. That is just so cruel. How can a so-called loving mother do that to her children? nce again, this means that they will have o contact with any familu members at all.

We have been forcced to do this before, the last time that contact was stopped, and the phone calls home to the children are all on loudspeaker so that both sides of the conversation can be monitored by their mother and their new "dad". Conversations were very stilted and it was clear the children were wandering around teh room away from teh phone etc. Last year we also had to deliver their birthday and Christmas presents to their home and were allowed into one room with them while mum and "dad" stayed in the kitchen with the door ajar, listening. It was all very unconfortable and upsetting too.

Their real dad was forced to phone the house to let them know he was waiting outside with their presents and the children had to run out to the car to get them.

They have timed this letter to arrive while they are away on holiday so that they will be away when the "shit hits the fan" so to speak. How cowardly. They're truly dispicable.

We need to get the ball rolling sooner rather than later but my mum is very despondant about the outcome and thinks that solicitors are the only way forward and that it will mean spiralling costs out of control which no one can afford. My mum has already had a free legal consultation and has been told that grandparents have no rights to their grandchildren in law and that she would not be eligible for legal aid because she owns her home outright and is deemed to have too much money anway. My BIL holds the key to us changing anything here.

Everyone here is very angry, upset and sad today as I'm sure you can imagine.

[Lyndamac]

Sorry typo that should be MEN lose custody to violent men or fathers?

[Lyndamac]

How many women do you know of have lost custody to violent me ?

How many women do you think meet up on the internet and discuss being done for failure to protect in DV and losing the children to adoption ?

The way DV is dealt with in closed court there is something going on now with more women losing contact.

Why do the government not know how many families have lost court cases & children & are barred out of court and are not able to return simply because of being given section 91/14 ?

The courts are being given new training now in criminal courts .
Why not do specialist training in closed family courts?
Social Workers are not properly trained to deal with DV issues.

www.Lyndamac.com

[mumoverseas]

totally agree yerblurt, sometimes dads just leave it too late, by which time it is that much harder to get contact up and running again and quite often, the children quite wrongly assume that he doesn't want to see them.

[yerblurt]

doffs hat to mumsoverseas

... I probably don't look too bad in lycra ... but need to go to the gym more to build the legs up

to the OP.

Please get your BIL to at least read over the threads here.

Please get him to at least contact FNF and get some advice, he should get himself along to the local branch - whereabouts in the country does he live.

Time is of the essence in this matter, if he leaves it, it will only get worse whilst this idiot is around. CAFCASS aren't stupid and sometimes the only way forward is to force the issue. There is NOTHING more important than your kids and in this situation I would say that the children's welfare, in terms of their psychological and emotional health, is at stake in the long term. That at least is worth fighting for.

Pass all our best wishes to your BIL from us - but he needs to move his arse sooner rather than later...

[solidgoldskullonastick]

If the XW left her job looking ill, make-up free and under stress then it is unlikely that she will be glowing with health and lavishly made-up at home. Experienced social workers can usually spot the signs of serious abuse, which sounds like the case here.
This is a very worrying situation, the sort that sometimes ends with deaths. A person who wants to cut his/her immediate family off from the outside world is always dangerous because the person is not sane. This man has a distorted worldview ie he thinks that by saying he is the DCs dad and insisiting everyone else says it too, he can make it be true. He doesn't soundlike a good father-figure at all. Internet poker is not exactly a reliable way of earning a living: what do they do on the weeks Dickface doesn't win.

[Gunnerbean]

Oh and forgot to add that if any visits were ever made by CAFCAS to their home all they would find is a blissfully happy family set up. As I've said before, we don;t know what this man has said to these children (or what their motehr has said to them on his behalf) but they absolutely idolise and adore him. I've no dobt whatsoever in my mid that they'd be more than happy to tell anyoe how wonderful he is. They're also well fed, well dressed and have plenty of material possessions. As I've said too, they're currently on holiday at Disneyland in Florida!

What is going on here is far more sinister ad people need to look beyond the superficial veneer of the perfect family unit. Perhaps it will be years from now until we really know how all of this has really affected them.

[Gunnerbean]

Thanks again for all of this. I can;t tell you how helpful it is. Already you;ve come up with an idea that we've not thought of - that of my BIL corresponding with the children by letter and sending them photos of him, their little brother and step mum.

Their nan would be more than happy to facilitate it and can be totally trusted. She knows their real dad may not have been the most consistent father over the years but she is utterly, appalled and staggered at her daughter's behaviours and actions over the last few months.

It's a 100% certainty that any letters he addressed to them at home would be intercepted. Sadly, there's also a very real possibly that visits to their nan could be stopped if they become aware that their real dad is using her address to contact them at.

The last time the visits to their nan were stopped (as I explained in a previous post)they were only reinstated on the condition that all the conditions that were set out in a letter that was sent by their mother to their nan were adhered to. There were several but two were that no one tried to stop them calling the new man "dad" and that no one "rammed X (their real dad) down their throats" . So we're on a very sticky wicket because we get the distinct impression that the children are "debriefed" so to speak after every visit. Sad, so sad.

As far as their school goes, I have already advised my BIL to make contact with the head to arrange a meeting to discuss things. As far as I'm aware, he's not done this yet. The famous letter (referred to above) did mention that the children were blissfully happy with their "new dad" and that when they meet the children's respective teachers, both commented on how happy and settled they were . As far as I know both chilren do well at school so I'm not totally convinced that the angle on their education suffering would be a fruitful one to pursue. I advised my BIL to make contact with the school just purely to be a thorn in their flesh. The mother will hate that he's done it,a nd will be mortified to think he's raking up any mud on them - as I said before she tries to portray them as a blissfully happy, content and devoted family unit.

I always think their blissful setup is analagous to a nice red shiny apple - looks lovely from the outside but scratch the surface and the maggots come wriggling out.

Thanks again all. Your helpful advice and insight into the formal processes that need to be gone through is absolutely invaluable. And thanks Yerblurt for the offer of my BIL contacting you, it's really appreciated.


I've

[mumoverseas]

excellent advice by Yerlurt, I did apologise for my error confusing FNF with rent a mob (fathers4justice) I accept you don't dress up although I'm sure you'd look absolutely fine in lycra!
fabulous advice and all I'd add is that if BIL's ex wants to obtain public funding (legal aid) she would at least have to go to mediation once in order to be elgible. Also, not sure if a prohibited steps order really necessary unless BIL had firm evidence that they were planning to remove the children from the jursidiction but I guess if he is making all the other S8 orders he may as well apply for that one too rather than have to apply for an order for the return of the children just in case she does remove them from the jurisdiction without his consent or without her having first made an application to the Court.

[Freckle]

The trouble with sending letters or cards to provide evidence of an attempt at continued contact is that the mother (or rather her partner) may intercept them and then subsequently claim they were never received. You could photocopy whatever is sent and get a certificate of posting. The courts might accept one or two items going astray in the post but not everything. Alternatively, send them to the nan's house, if she can be trusted to ensure the children get them. She could be encouraged to help the children write back - although how long this would last if the children tell mum what they are doing and are ordered to stop.

I do think that social services should be involved. At the very least, if court proceedings are instigated, the CAFCASS officer will have access to the children's home and can assess the situation there.

[yerblurt]

blimey sounds absolutely grim.

what a horrendous sitution, sounds like this new fella is one hell of a control freak, you are right in the co-dependency but the whole relationship stinks of control and dominance.

Your BIL should not wait around really, this becomes a child welfare issue IMHO.

Does your BIL have contact with the school? As he has PR the school have a responsibility to keep him informed of the childrens progress i.e. parents evening invites, school reports etc etc. I would suggest that BIL makes an appointment with the headteacher and introduce himself as a concerned dad, not there to cause trouble or embroil the school in parental disputes but because he is rightly concerned about the childrens education and the impact of the home life. The school is a very powerful ally.

I don't think the ex will respond to attending Mediation - but your BIL should propose it in writing, requesting a response in 2 weeks otherwise he will have no alternative but to make an application to court as time is of the essence.

If/when your BIL makes an application to court on a C1 form he should also request something called "Abridged Service Notice" (put this on the space for Q13), this means that a hearing will be listed quicker than the usual 4-6 weeks. Abridged service is usually made for 1-2 weeks and is only done if there are pressing child welfare issues. I would say that this is one of them, that the children were enjoying consistent frequent contact with dad, but recently mum has unilaterally stopped contact and BIL has serious concerns about the home environment - that mums new partner is being encouraged to be called Dad, to use his surname, that they have been asking to move overseas and their education is suffering. You don't ask you don't get.

Join FNF now and get along to a meeting. He can join FNF on the web or over the phone and there is a very good internet forum which is full of advice from other parents.

Pass our good wishes onto your BIL, if he wants to contact me he's welcome (email: [email protected])