Adult son not paying his way or helping out. Really fed up with it. WWYD?

[catweazle]

My DS1 dropped out of uni this year and came home in June. He didn't want to go back to his old job at McDs and wasn't going to but DS2 bullied him into it. He doesn't know what he wants to do. Every week since he's been back I've suggested the adult careers office in the town might help and every week he finds excuses not to go. He is only working 3 days (and not full days). The rest of the time he sits in his room on his laptop. He has started his driving lessons again as he thinks it will help to find him a job.

We sat him down several weeks ago and explained that he needed to be paying us for his keep. We have never taken money off him before, even when he was working FT in the last summer hols, because he was saving for uni. I don't want to make money off him but firstly we really can't afford to keep him as he eats like a locust, and secondly no-one gets a free ride in this life and it's time he got used to it. We suggested 1/3 of his take home pay but said if he thought that was too much we were open to discussion.

Several weeks have passed and no money. I have "reminded" him twice. He just grunts. It is embarrassing to have to beg for money. Our finances are quite bad and we could do with it, especially the amount of food we are having to buy for 3 teens at home all day... In the meantime he is buying books, toys, sweets, music, so it isn't as if he is really skint. It cost us over £300 to go and get him home from uni and although we don't expect him to be grateful it would be nice if he would acknowledge that we have actually put ourselves out for him.

If we ask him to tidy up it doesn't happen. if we ask him to watch the baby he won't. He doesn't do anything spontaneously- dishwasher, making meals etc and has to be nagged to do anything, so it's easier not to bother. He is almost 21 years old.

He wasn't like this before he went away. He was always anxious to work as much as possible and was quite helpful around the house. I'm sure the experience has knocked his confidence but he won't talk to us. I'm trying to help him but he won't co-operate. DH is now saying we should find him somewhere to live and ask him to leave because he is fed up with his attitude.

Help!!!

[BecauseImWorthIt]

No gnd, I don't miss the point at all. You don't want to give up any of your income and resent those who don't have your income being helped by the state.

I'm not sure what you being a graduate has to do with it either. And you are not alone in paying more tax, although it would appear to seem as if you think so! You pay more tax because you earn more. And taxes are paid to the government for the greater good - i.e. to pay for services that will benefit all of us, not just the select few.

We live in a society, where the less fortunate are given some help. I find it sad that you choose to feel penalised by this system.

[girlnextdoor]

because I am worth it- you miss the point entirely- the point being that people aged 18 are regarded as adults- whose education should not be dependent on their parents income for support when they are regarded in law as being adults in every other way.

My DH and I are both graduates- we pay a lot more in tax than other people do anyway. Students whose parents are not in this position are "rewarded" by the state, when they are given a bigger loan ( which has to be re-paid anyway). That to me is unfair. Why should my children be penalised by my income, when they are now in fact adults?

And to answer the point that it is my choice to have a large mortgage and live in the SE- well, the reason I am in the SE is that 30 years ago unemployment was so bad for people in my profession that I left the north in order to find work, rather than be unemployed or take a job that did not use my degree.

[Cammelia]

At the risk of sounding old-fashioned, surely higher education is a privelege, rather than a right.

Therefore, sacrfices have to be made unless one's parents can/want to pay for you up to the age of 21/22

When I went to university I had a 6 year old child, it was in the days when grants were available so I did get that, but also still had to work as well in order to support myself and a child during the three years of my degree.

[Tortington]

i hardly think that bright children with parents who play the benefits system - are abound at university PMSL

and if they are - then good luck to you merry merry few!

[BecauseImWorthIt]

Not sure if I dare post on here, but GND your huge mortgage in the South East is entirely your choice.

And you are lucky to be able to make that choice.

Many others, as like some on this thread, simply can't make these choices.

Why is it unfair to be means tested? You and your family have money and can make a contribution. Why should the government pay everything for you just to free up a bit more of your disposable income?

Means testing is a way to make things fair - to help those in society who have less. Why is that such a bad thing?

[girlnextdoor]

qally - it is a pity that in your professional role, you are unable to remain detached from the situation- I hope it doesn't show when you are talking toparents.

I think it is grossly unfair that my DCs' loan is means tested. It takes for granted that we are willing to make up the difference.

The are ADULTS- as everyone here keeps reminding the OP- but is suits the government that they remain dependent on their parents as long as they are at uni.

What can possibly be fair in that? One rule for some, another rule for others.

I see parents whose kids get the full loan who live in council houses, take 3 holidays abroad every year, have the latest cars, often as a result of playing the benefits system, whereas we are stuck with a huge mortgage in the south east, which we will be paying until we retire.

[girlnextdoor]

Qally- my DS is the chancellor of the exchequer...

of course, your DH must be right.....

nothing like pulling rank is there
it is one economist's opinion over another, eh?

[Qally]

That's fantastic, sounds like he is starting to pull his life together. Good for you for keeping at it/him, too. As someone else who's suffered from pretty bad depression at times, I don't think being allowed to sink into apathetic dependence is good for you. His working at all indicated he was relatively functioning, and actually I think pulling his weight might help his pride/confidence. So it's not just important so you guys can eat, I think it's important for him, too.

As to your points girlnextdoor, student support is slightly higher than you're claiming. A student on full support will get over £3k loans plus a £2835 grant, and that combined maximum level is available for anyone with a family income below £15k, with the maximum grant available to anyone whose parents earn under £25k. A London student can get around £6k, combined. The extra support doesn't just cut off sharply, either, it tapers off slowly up to a family income (for students starting this year) of £65k. Bluntly, I am sick and tired of fielding calls from parents with incomes in excess of £70k a year, complaining about the lack of state support for their kids. 90% of the people in this country earn under £39k. Why should their taxes fund the kids of the far better off, above a bare subsistence? Tax money doesn't grow on trees, and while I'm happy to pay taxes for education - more than happy - I'm less happy to top up car running costs for the kids of the better off. I had one mother last week insisting that her "perfectly average middle class income" of £80k pa wasn't enough to top up her son's student support so he could avoid working in term time, unless she and her husband were assessed as separated (they aren't). The fact that the vast majority of students have to work, and that many are not getting any more than Mum is, once a part time job & Access funds are factored in, seemed to be beyond her.

£3470 isn't much to live on, no. But almost all students have to work in vacations, and part-time in term. It's a question of juggling and being frugal. Hostels/flights are not cheap at all if you are genuinely living on your overdraft, loan, and access funds. They're prohibitively expensive - I couldn't afford to travel as a student, because I was... you know, a student. Bluntly, I can't help wondering if you know what benefit levels are? Because your take on how dreadful student support is seems to be coloured by your own perception of life's necessities, which in turn are inevitably coloured by your own lifestyle. Student support is not remotely generous, agreed; students do struggle... before leaving in massive debt, which is why the drive to push everyone into higher ed. is worrying. But suggesting that it's impossible for a student to live without parental support just isn't true; I see plenty of students, in their final years of study, with parents on benefit. Of course it's easier to combine a social life and studies without working; in my case the social life suffered, in others' their studies did. But that's life. If you're adult enough to no longer rely financially on Mum and Dad, you're old enough to realise that time management is the only way to do well, and eat.

[Qally]

""This is not really the thread to discuss politics, but as I brought it up I will defend my case- England props up the Scottish economy. Everyone who knows anything about economics knows that. My son is an economist anyway, but it is a well known fact that without subsidies from the English, Scotland would have massive debt. If you do not beleive me, do your own research."

My husband's an economist. King's College, Cambridge. I'm sure you're right and he's wrong, though. ;)

[nappyaddict]

is that £60 a week or a fortnight? if fortnightly i'd say no it's not really enough but if it's weekly then it's probably fair. i can't imagine he earns that much working part time at mcdonalds.

[expatinscotland]

I'm glad it worked out for you, cat!

BTW, I don't believe who ever said working in McDonald's is not a 'proper' job. WTF? Why on Earth not?

[tigermoth]

catweazle, that's fantastic! He's obviously taken on board the fact that you cannot support him 100% and it's so good he's begun to plan what he will do next. And lucky that he can go on a McD training scheme in the meantime.

Earlier on you said that in the past, he's been good at contributing and doing some chores, so it looks like he's back on course. Phew!

[catweazle]

Bit of a result today!

I took someone's advice and sent him an email saying as he seemed to be avoiding me I was scheduling a meeting for today to discuss money and what he wants to do. I said we have no food in the house (true) and that I couldn't buy any because I have no money and he needed to give me some!

This morning when he got up he went out, then when he came back he was waiting for me in the kitchen. He'd been to the ATM and handed me £60. I said that wasn't very much (he gets paid fortnightly) and was it 1/3? He said more-or-less and that he'll get more next week, because he's done more hours.

He's had a word with his boss and they are going to put him on their management training scheme, so he'll get a higher hourly rate as well as more hours. He'll stay on that while he looks for something else and take whatever courses they offer him in the meantime.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions of how to handle this delicate situation. Seems we are getting somewhere at last.

[AnnVan]

I have total sympathy for sufferers of long term depression, but I agree that depression can not be used as an excuse to sponge off others. My brother (supposedly) had depression for years (I have many reasons for being sceptical about this, but won't go into the reasons here) and lived at my parents without working, helping out or paying his way. His no-good friends would come round, eat loads of food, and run u the phone bill calling mobile numbers. My brother is now 23 and still living at home. He has FINALLY got a job for the first time, but my mum still gets up in the mornings to wake him up for work!
Somthing does need to be done. I know that it's difficult, but it is too easy to end up stuck with a KIPPER.

[prettyfly1]

as someone who has been living independantly since 16 despite depression i agree with the others. I am pleased you are concerned for him and he is very lucky to have that but you must put your foot down. would it help to write down some house rules and put penalties in place. trust me forcing him to work if hs confidence has been knocked is the best thing you can do for him

[expatinscotland]

'I would agree with this sentiment entirely having a BIL who is now 45 and still living at home with his parents. He only works occasionally and has no qualifications to his name. I do have a degree of sympathy for him but the strife in that house is all of their own making. They're all as bad as one another.

Catweazle, if your son ends up like my BIL is now and I sincerely hope he does not, you will have done yourselves a huge disservice. My inlaws have enabled him to the nth degree, they have brought this upon themselves.

You have to address this and now, not do as my ILs have done. '

I couldn't agree more, Attila! Sounds just like a younger version of BIL.

As you know and have seen me on umpteen mental health threads.

I, too, have suffered from depression for years now.

The OP doesn't have the money to support this kid's living at home and eating all the time.

The money's just not there.

She and her husband both work FT and have other children at home who are younger.

He has to pay up.

He's been there over 2 months and refuses to speak to his own parents whose house he's in about money, all whilst spending it on himself.

He doesn't want to talk to them about money.

What is she supposed to do?

Keep up the status quo?

Sadly, unless you're incapacited entirely by it, depression has never exempted suffers from paying rent and council tax.

[tigermoth]

I do think elf and bladebla do have a point. I was thinking about this more today - it is not as if this boy has been lounging around at home for years. He only came home in June. It is not long, in the grand scheme of things, so sort out a new job or course of study. He may be using some of the time he is on his laptop in browse the internet in search of jobs or training, it's always possible he has some idea, but doesn't want to tell anyone yet.

I think it's important to get him to contribute to the household asap but also to give him some breathing space - two or three months is not that long.

[BlaDeBla]

It seems as though everyone has been talking about university. What about depression? It's a horrible illness which sucks the life out of you. A lot of people suffer their first serious depressive episode in their late teens/early 20s, and it needs to be treated. There is help out there and it would probably help to know if the young man is physically and mentally in good health. If he is, go ahead and read him the riot act. If not, he may need professional help, and different support. Depression can sometimes be quite difficult to diagnose as it can be masked.

[Elf]

I just wanted to add, please don't chuck him out. Sounds like he's having problems of who knows what kind and taking away your support won't help. I realise he isn't communicating at the moment but hopefully he will soon. I'm not saying don't be tough but it could be hard to get back to a good relationship if he feels let down by you. I wish you well.

[girlnextdoor]

Not written by numpties but maybe not quite as independent as we might be made to believe- you know what they say about economists- put 3 in a room together and they all come up with a different figure- and you can interpret stats in millions of ways.

No idea who Oxford Economics are but just by having Oxford as the name of their business does not mean they are right!

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

"This is not really the thread to discuss politics, but as I brought it up I will defend my case- England props up the Scottish economy. Everyone who knows anything about economics knows that. My son is an economist anyway, but it is a well known fact that without subsidies from the English, Scotland would have massive debt. If you do not beleive me, do your own research."

Oh, really?

I guess this report by Oxford Economics must have been written by numpties, then.

Back on topic, my 21 year old is about to enter third year at Uni and works part-time - I don't take money from him for his keep but he pays for his own "stuff" and helps out at home.

A bit.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

'Depression is not an excuse to treat your parents like your servants and their home like a squat.'

I would agree with this sentiment entirely having a BIL who is now 45 and still living at home with his parents. He only works occasionally and has no qualifications to his name. I do have a degree of sympathy for him but the strife in that house is all of their own making. They're all as bad as one another.

Catweazle, if your son ends up like my BIL is now and I sincerely hope he does not, you will have done yourselves a huge disservice. My inlaws have enabled him to the nth degree, they have brought this upon themselves.

You have to address this and now, not do as my ILs have done.

[Saggarmakersbottomknocker]

What naffs me off is the course fees. Upwards of £3K for 10 or 12 hours a week of lectures. Tis a bit of a rip off I feel.

Hope you are getting somewhere with your discussions catweazle.

[girlnextdoor]

Many, many students run cars. Itis also possible to have cheap holidays if you are happy to live in hostels etc etc.

I had a car as a student- I lived at home for part of my course, worked in the hols and saved up.

I think we must remember there is a whole social spectrum- I have friends who have paid £15K a year and more for their kids to be privately educated.

I agree that it is quite possible to go to uni without parental support- but those students get more state help, which mine don't, and they do end up paying for it one way or another- either by working during term time, or by having larger debts at the end of it.