When do you give up on a marriage?

[DelightfullySoSo]

Just that really.

We have two kids at home and he has said previously even if I insist on separating he’s “not going anywhere” and my kids need this house for school/friends/work.

We couldn’t afford two homes here and under no circumstances am I leaving my kids.

He could in theory move into a rental nearby and I could just about cover the mortgage and bills myself and settle it up from a sale once the kids are older - but he won’t agree to go. He is able to withstand constant tension whereas it’s breaking me apart.

He’s got it made here. The illusion of a family, his own bedroom, self employed. A wife who he controls with silent treatment when he can’t be bothered being held accountable for his actions, or that he just simply avoids.

Been married 20+ years, chalk and cheese no common interests at all, very hands off with kids now they’re older, has ‘checked out’ of looking after our home not interested at all, (can’t even get him to do the slightest bit of DIY then he complains if I try and get someone in).

Our dysfunction is mostly in our inability to communicate in a healthy way, periods of emotional abuse from him (stonewalling, silent treatment for several days at a time, often after sudden eruption over tiny things), it’s always left to me to make amends, organise the house and kids, carry all the mental load.

As I get older - and I assume because of my accumulated experience of being unhappy with how he deals with things - I’m getting ‘harder’ and angrier. This is making our ability to talk even worse as I’m finding it virtually impossible to just suck it up and keep the peace. I’ve been doing that for half my life and I’m exhausted. I have a chronic health condition and I am so anxious when he’s around - sometimes even when things are okay between us. When he’s out the house feels lighter. When he’s home me and the kids work around him.

He is capable of being good company, kind and thoughtful, but I think he’s as jaded with the relationship as I am but just more able to stick it out no matter how bad it is. He grew up in a dysfunctional parental war zone so he’s accustomed to it.

Trouble is despite calling that out many times, we seem to be replicating his parents terrible marriage. My parents just didn’t really talk or interact, both busy with pressured jobs but did eventually split. His are still together; tormenting each other endlessly.

We are in separate rooms and sleep apart but still intimate on the rare occasion I feel psychologically safe and in the mood (peri menopause doesn’t help).

Still care for him, still attracted to him. If I leave him to his moods and silence eventually he defrosts and we go back to equilibrium.

So my Plan A has morphed from somehow contorting myself in trying to make the marriage work because I love him, to realising I’m consistently, deeply unhappy and just trying to make it to when the youngest leaves home - or at least is old enough to emotionally cope better with a split.

Possibly he has undiagnosed ASD, very few friends, no socialising, and has bouts of depression (and one of mania) over the years. We split for a short while 3 years ago after a culmination of lockdown, emotional and financial abuse.

I had huge amounts of support because his behaviour was extreme. I was able to hold firm on not allowing him to come home until he engaged with a counsellor.

He duly went into counselling for over a year and changed his behaviour quite significantly but over the time since he stopped counselling has reverted back to controlling through silence, temper flares, moodiness, and the thing I find hardest; he just seems checked out. It’s like he feels nothing. He says he doesn’t want anything from me, doesn’t make ‘demands’ to be connected and close like I do, and that he’s happy. Go figure.

It’s like he’s comfortable for me to raise his kids for him, and pay half the bills for a nice house (I earn more than him and signed off on several loans so he could go self employed because he kept losing jobs).

When things are peaceful he gives me breadcrumbs of affection and friendship but only if I stay in line, don’t challenge, don’t question, don’t disagree.

He recently made a waitress nearly cry with his abrupt manner and got angry at me for “siding with her” when I tried to explain to him that she was busy and harassed and to let me deal with poor service if it’s going to wind him up too much. Our poor kids were mortified and upset. I told him that and he just said “no they weren’t”.

So we’re currently in hostile silence and avoidance mode .. again. For how long? He decides.

Friends advise me “tell him how you feel”, “talk to him and ask him to curb the length of time he withdraws to not leave you hanging”, or “let him calm down then talk to him….”

They don’t understand you cannot make someone talk to you.

He is currently avoiding me and giving me silent treatment on the basis of my disloyalty in the restaurant it seems.

The silence can last for days. Last month he managed 8 days straight (because he couldnt find a street from the directions I gave and he exploded in the car with our daughter in the back).

8 days of silence later I finally cracked and said ‘FYI I’ve reached out to a couples counsellor because I don’t know if our marriage can last without help’. That got his attention and he was absolutely lovely…. for 12 days.

How do you separate if you need the house for the kids and he won’t go. He says he can’t afford to. If I paid 100% of the bills that would give him plenty to rent. I had solicitor advice 3 years ago and know could force a sale after 12 months but have to live in a war zone. That still uproots the kids, and god knows what damage to them in a tense home for 12 months knowing we’re splitting.

He is very comfortable stonewalling me. It doesn’t seem to cause him any problem whatsoever, he sleeps, eats and works as normal.

Whereas I can’t think straight, I obsess about what happened and how on earth to fix it, and even when I ‘woman up’ and behave as if I’m fine, put a brave face on it, I’m actually just getting angrier by the day that he has all the control and I can’t seem to find the courage to end it.

I can’t because I don’t know what ‘ending it’ looks like and I want to put my kids needs first.

Can anyone help me?

Even if he agreed to amicably separate, I am liable for the loans which give him his income. I would be pulling a rug out beneath him. He’s due several inheritance in the next 10+ years but has said he’d go after half my pension and inheritances aren’t counted as marital assets. I’d be ruined.

He’s very smart with money and knows this, and sometimes if I wonder if that’s the reason he’s still here, dripping out just enough to keep me hanging in there whilst he has almost total freedom to suit himself.

We only have 1 shared room so when he’s in the lounge I either sit there being ignored, hide in my bedroom (leaving my poor youngest sitting there being ignored), or go out and again leave my child. They say he barely speaks when I’m out. A babysitter would interact with them more.

When we briefly split some years ago, he said he came back because he “can’t face starting again” at his age.

I feel trapped. Can’t seem to make him want to make things better. Can’t seem to figure out how to split without devastation.

[eggplant16]

The scenario of his parents together and tormenting each other is familiar to me and my worry is that I/we are replicating this.

I'm sorry OP. I wish I could be of more help.

[Emmylou22]

My first thought when reading your post is that staying in this unhappy marriage is NOT an option for you. Discount that option as it will make you mentally physically unwell.

Have you sought legal advice re. the house and divorce? Could you move into a rental with the kids for now to get a clear head to be able to deal with the long term plans?

[Pallisers]

What you describe is horrific. No one should live like this. And that includes your children. Honestly, I think you should accept that you must split from him. I could probably live with someone who has checked out if I had my own bedroom - could get along pleasantly for the sake of the kids until they were older but I could not put up with the level of abuse he is directing at you - silent treatment/blowing up/etc. And, frankly, leaving you out of it, your children are living in a war zone and are learning that this is what a marriage looks like - they will replicate it just like he did.

Forget seeing a couples counsellor. See your own counsellor. See a solicitor and explore possible ways to split. Get a realistic idea of what would happen/what you would end up with and then ask yourself what will you pay to live in your own home with your own children and never have to deal with this torment again, knowing that your children aren't mortified by him abusing a waitress or yelling at their mother or not talking to their mother. And I don't know how old your kids are but once they hit the teen years, he'll probably start on them too.

I really feel for you OP. He sounds mentally unwell but that is irrelevant - he is making your life miserable and unhappy. This is your only life. You owe him nothing. Start thinking that you WILL split and then figure out what needs to happen. Yeah, it might be really unpleasant for your children for the interim period - but you can talk to them about it - and it is really unpleasant for them right now too - and will stay really unpleasant.

[theworldie]

You need to see a solicitor.

At this point I would think the best thing is to move into a rental with the dcs short term then plough ahead with divorce and a house sale. He won’t be able to block it. My understanding is that Mesher orders (where one spouse gets to keep the house as the dcs live there most of the time) are extremely rare.

If you’ve decided you’ve had enough just get the ball rolling to end things officially- but you will have to accept you probably won’t be able to stay in the family home.

[theworldie]

And don’t entertain the idea of couples counselling - he’s abusive and no decent counsellor would recommend that. Go on your own if anything.

[SummerInSun]

Agree with PP - see a solicitor. Even if you saw one three years ago, that was before no fault divorce was introduced. Law may be different now. And you need to ask the specific question about how you force him to leave.

[WinkyTinky]

We only have 1 shared room so when he’s in the lounge I either sit there being ignored, hide in my bedroom (leaving my poor youngest sitting there being ignored), or go out and again leave my child. They say he barely speaks when I’m out. A babysitter would interact with them more.

This is exactly how I live, @DelightfullySoSo I hate going out of the way knowing I'm leaving my youngest sitting at the other end of the sofa from dh, occupying himself on his phone while his dad ignores him. Occasionally he will say something to ds, but he's so out of touch with his own child, ds just kinds of nods politely and then goes back to what he's doing. You're right, a babysitter would interact more. It's so draining to be around, but if I go out, I'm inflicting it all on the kids.

Please find a way to leave him. Half an hour with a solicitor will get you started.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

See a solicitor and start divorce proceedings, your children will thank you.

Nothing about this re him at all suggests ASD, he is abusive and very much a product of his own dysfunctional upbringing. You are his codependent wife.

[pikkumyy77]

Horrifying. Rip the bandaid off.

consult a divorce lawyer and a forensic accountant to figure out leverage as well as assets and liabilities. Think of this as your fulltime job: getting free of him.

He can stonewall you longer than you can stay sane in the same house. But he can’t endure alone so your positions are reversed once you pull the plug on the relationship.

[SwordToFlamethrower]

Go see a solicitor ASAP and repeat what you have said here.

[terribleangel]

Your OP conveys such an impression of grey deadness I feel like he is made of granite. This is actually in my top five all time worst husbands of mumsnet. He is set in, OP, like a fungus. You must remove and have the place fumigated— by which I mean sold by divorce lawyers. Get out now to the sunniest rental you can find, with the dcs. Bloody hell you can’t live like this!

[Itsrainingoverhere]

Following please

[category12]

I want to put my kids needs first.

OK, but is staying in this environment their entire childhood actually in their best interests?

What sort of lessons are your children learning from this relationship model? Would you be happy to see them replicate this in their own relationships in future?

What sort of damage is he doing to their self-esteem right now, daily, with his disinterest and erratic temper?

[PatioDreama]

Those 12 months of forcing the sale might be the best thing you ever did for yourself and the children. There are more important things than money, especially for children.

You need a shit hot scary aggressive female lawyer to fight your corner.

It’s time to call his bluff.

A life of misery is no life at all. Your children need a relaxed and happy mum. And don’t think they are not feeling the tension and normalising it as he has done. Awful way to live.

I left a relationship like this and blossomed the years following, I dread to think what trajectory my life would have taken had I stayed - an emotional, mental, and physical wreck no doubt!

Instead, I’ve had some really delightful moments and happy times, you can, too. You may not be able to visualise it right now, but it’s there waiting for you to discover.

Put some steel into your core and get down to business.

[hellnojuliet]

Hi Op,

This sounds sadly familiar.
Just like my marriage.
Same length of time, same stonewalling, separate rooms,the financial smugness, totally abrogation of all the emotional load and the life admin, no affection, no friends (him ) , no desire to spend time with me, passive- aggressive in-laws, sexual coercion, being used like a fleshlight, chronic acute pain disorder (me) , violently ill for a year( me ) and ultimately a suicidal son whose admission into in-patient treatment precipitated the end of it all. Refused counselling, silent treatment ….oh I hear you.
Our financials were wound into a family trust and it was a mess. He too refused to leave the house, even though he had family to stay with. I had no one.

I ended it. Finally. Stayed way too long, but it had all looked impossible before. I was terrified, and it was hard.
But better than the slow death I was (not)living. If he’s like my ex, he will actually want you to leave. He just doesn’t want to be the bad guy, and wants to be able to claim victim status ( because he knows he has made you hard, and he hopes less sympathetic).
Find a good lawyer and end it.
Your health will improve. And I say this as someone with cPTSD.

The war zone ( this sounds mental but it was my experience) you’ll live in forcing the sale of your house is better than the slow attrition of self, and the appalling example you give your kids accepting that. I spent a year separated under the same roof. It won’t be fun. But it’s been worth it so far. My kids and I are okay, alive, in therapy and living much better lives.

[Endoftheroad12345]

@DelightfullySoSo Why would you be ruined if you earn enough to buy him out of the house? How old are the kids?

You are describing my marriage to a tee. It’s sound destroying. The emotional abuse, the eruptions. I ended it in November 2022. 21 years together, 13 married. I was 41, my kids were 4.5 and 8.

He also refused to leave, threatened suicide, constant abuse, drained joint accounts
of tens of thousands of dollars.

I found a house to rent (we were lucky to be able to afford it) and we “nested” until August 2023. I furnished it singlehandedly, down to buying his bed and the sheets for it. By then he had found a girlfriend and wanted to move out full time. So I gradually got him out. Negotiated asset split over 2023 and bought him out of the family home just prior to Christmas 2023. He reamed me for every penny. I have no family support, no financial or practical support from anyone. I have a very senior job and two small children (now 9.5 and nearly 6) full
time - he has them every other weekend, usually just Saturday.

It was extremely stressful but I cannot emphasise enough how glad I am to be free. Apart from having the kids, leaving him was the best decision I have ever made. My children are so much happier. Our house is peaceful and calm. I have a whole lifetime to look forward to. I have a new partner who utterly loves me - I never knew relationships could be so easy and happy. Life can be amazing.

[Endoftheroad12345]

I had become hard and angry too but I was actually very sad, highly anxious and traumatised from life with a mean, emotionally stunted abuser.

I am so happy now and feel like a weight has lifted from me.

He refused to engage with me initially - I had to force every step. The best money I spent was on my fantastic lawyer who shepherded me through the process. (Ironically I am a lawyer as is he).

I am now counting the days until I can file for divorce… I am in NZ and we have a 2 year mandatory separation period and he insisted on separation counting from the date of the lease of the “nest” which means I can’t file until January 2025!! Maddening

[Mandy1010]

Hi OP,

I didn’t want so read and run as this unfortunately is sadly familiar to me too. You have described my relationship pretty exactly. Though I am so fed up of the way he feels he can behave with impunity and absolutely no accountability, I think I have lost all respect for him.

I’m at the point where I know I need to leave but not worked out exactly how to and haven’t got the courage. So I don’t really have any advice for you on how you should go about it. I still have my head in the sand trying to deny the fact that this is my life. I live with someone who makes me feel like they hate me. But my confidence is so low i don’t leave. I know though I deserve more than this. The hope is gone and I have accepted this is not going to get better. Still questioning if it’s bad enough to leave. Deep down I know the answer though.

[PearlPam]

People separate all the time, it's hard of course but you need to get your poor dc out of this horribly toxic environment. Get a rental, sell the house. You've no other option as you've tried everything .