Those of you married to a lawyer

[Ancientruins]

Does it ever get better?

He's a lovely man and he earns a good salary but I'm twenty or so years in and the work never stops. I mean never.
Not on holiday. Not during births. Not during house moves.

And although a devoted husband and father who totally gets stuck in when available, that tends to be only two half days at weekends if we are lucky. And then he is so exhausted he either forces himself to join in, falls asleep while we are watching a film, or he looks so wretched I send him to bed to catch up on sleep.

Things are much better when we are on holiday; he becomes so much happier and more relaxed although business calls still creep in here and there. And of course it takes him ten days on either side to fight through the work and then catch up again to even get to the point where he can leave the office for a few days.

It used to work well because I very much like my own company and I have a close and supportive family, but as time goes on, I am starting to wonder what's the point, why do you even need a wife, do you just expect me to sit here and wait until you are available in fifteen years when you are retired? Isn't the point to enjoy the journey along the way? When I ask him this he says "but the reason I am doing this is for you and the DC". What am I supposed to say to that?

It sounds selfish because I know he loves me and relies on me being "around" but I am getting a bit tired of being at the bottom of the priority list which appears to be: work, DC (quite rightly), dog, household necessities, life admin, wife. Except by the time he gets time to focus on me he is so tired his eyes literally glaze over when we speak. I try not to take it personally.

I'm thoroughly fed of him constantly being on his phone, or conversations, meals , evenings being interrupted by calls from clients. When we were first married it was a joke that as soon as we started a conversation , he would rush out of the door to the office, to the airport, to a client meeting. Our teens actually named him "the smoke" because that's all that's left in his trail. The joke is starting to wear a bit thin!

People assume there are monetary compensations but I am lucky enough to have my own source of income so I am not dependent on him for that.

He says he can only do his job now at this level because of all the hours and the expertise he has built up over thirty years. And I know his work is in an important field which he finds incredibly challenging, and intellectually satisfying. But it doesn't leave time for anything else, and as the years go on, there doesn't seem to be any hope that things will change before he retires, if he doesn't drop dead of a heart attack or stroke first.

I miss him

[EarthSight]

Also, he might be a lovely man, but he's a lovely man who puts his work first and doesn't seen satisfied to be spending time with you. It's harsh but true.

His work is his centre of gravity. It's the sun that he orbits and one can feel invisible in a marriage with men like that. What they want is a pleasant, pretty, supportive wife that they can cuddle at night like a comfort blanket. It's often lost on them that their wives have their own needs because the husbands are so inflexible, preoccupied, and often prioritise themselves first.

[EarthSight]

You seem to have an absent husband. He's either working that much because he secretly wants to spend as much time away from the family and you as possible, or he lives to work. It's in some people's nature. If it wasn't this, there would be some other project or business he's be working on. Also, I have heard of stupid hours being worked by some lawyers - some of them work 50 - 70 hrs a week. Being a husband is more than being a provider and he doesn't seem to get that. Maybe he's pretending to not understand that, who knows. He also has a very poor work/home balance.

He is going to have to stop one day unless he plans to work until he dies, however, if he cuts down his hours or quits, you will both need to be ok with a drop in income.

[itallworkedouthorribly]

My sister is always being offered roles that would involve this level of commitment and has refused them. She was offered a partnership in the firm she's with and refused it too explaining work life balance. They said they wanted her anyway and she got what she wanted. I don't know how lucky she is.

[FreeButtonBee]

It’s a type and it’s very hard to break away from ‘must service the client at all costs’. I know lots of really nice guys, fun, lovely to go for a beer with, totally wedded to the partnership ‘dream’. I don’t really think you can be a city law partner and not be a workaholic.

Thankfully both DH and I went in house - me at 4 years PQE and DH about 8 years. It still has its moments but mostly I am instructing the law firms and getting them to do the all nighters rather than having to do them myself! DH is a GC at a small place and has carved out more of a COO role which gives him the business satisfaction but he is the client and can prioritise/push back.

There are lots of things he could do which would be fulfilling and interesting but less pressure and surely if he’s been sensible you should be okay for money at this stage. But he probably doesn’t want to change.

[category12]

@LannieDuck

When I ask him this he says "but the reason I am doing this is for you and the DC". What am I supposed to say to that?

You tell him very clearly that what he's doing isn't what you want. That you want to spend more time as a family (no work), even if it means less income. So he's not doing it for you. He's doing it for him. He can at least be honest about it.

This.

[harknesswitch]

My dh used to be like this, he worked 7 days a week tbh and during holidays etc.

In his 50s he took voluntary redundancy and decided to use some of the money to take his HGV licence, I thought he was mad. But he started driving as a stop gap. Went from £100k + to £30k. But he's a different man. Happy, relaxed, not stressed and most importantly, he's present! That was over 5 years ago now.

We obviously don't have the lifestyle we used to, we downgraded the house but we are all so much happier and for the first time ever, we are a family which we all contribute to. If he ever said he was going back into his old job, I've told him I'd leave him.

He needs to make the decision op. He can do this

[dopenguinsdance]

I think I must be the odd one out here on so many counts. DH isn't a city solicitor, and both of us are committed to our marriage. Bowing out as I have no wisdom to impart, save that in your position AncientRuins I'd be thinking seriously about what I wanted in my future too, and making plans for it with and without DH.

[TheBlueStocking]

I know of lawyers who work themselves to death and some who don't. They do the same job as well, same chambers, same cases. It's definitely a type.

[Paris14eme]

@Ancientruins I don’t doubt that he’s a good man etc etc but I do think that in reality he’s married to the job first, you come well down the line. I’m a lawyer too (ex City, went In-House because I hated all those ruined evenings, holidays, weekends). Twenty four years of marriage and four kids later we are getting divorced. I have been like a single mother for all of these years, the kids spend hardly any time with their father (he’s too busy and important) and I just couldn’t take it anymore. For this kind of man, it’s his whole identity. God knows what will happen when he’s retired because I’ve been saying for years that he has no hinterland other than watching sport on tv. Lawyers are by nature pretty driven people but there’s a huge element of workaholism involved -and workaholism is an addiction like any other. I tried everything: talking to him, counselling (he walked out), trying to persuade him to work less but I feel I have never really counted : other than bringing in more money and greasing the wheels of family life for him. Seriously, even when I returned to working after the last birth I could have dyed my hair green and he wouldn’t have noticed. Our sex life died a death years ago due to his stress levels. He’s in a relationship with a colleague who has no kids because that suits him better. There’s no sense of balance in his life and his health is poor. I have a new partner who works “normal” hours and shares my interests such as cycling, skiing and tennis. My STBXH was always too busy or tired to do anything and would basically collapse with exhaustion on holiday and become ill/ get cold sores.... yet still be on the phone/ his laptop most of the time. I feel for you OP but unless something dramatic happens, I doubt that he will change so the question is: what do you want out of life? I turned 50 recently- we met at law school aged 22 (me) and 24 (him) and I’ve gradually realised just how long the children and I have played second fiddle to his bloody career , so sad as it is, I’m done. There’s more to life.

[LannieDuck]

When I ask him this he says "but the reason I am doing this is for you and the DC". What am I supposed to say to that?

You tell him very clearly that what he's doing isn't what you want. That you want to spend more time as a family (no work), even if it means less income. So he's not doing it for you. He's doing it for him. He can at least be honest about it.

[yetmorecrap]

There are some fantastic salaried in house legal jobs too - I work in what is seen as a fun industry and there really are some terrific jobs on the legal side with totally different expectations to city type roles — and it’s not all about billable hours. We aren’t talking pauper levels either . Unless he was Mark darcey doing a realm calling such as human rights— it might be time for him to think sideways.

[Theoscargoesto]

@Ancientruins I think my point is that I bought in to the need, at the time, to work the hours, be so committed and so on because I was waiting for the pay off, the light a the end of the tunnel. For me that was retirement, time to ourselves, because when we had time, they were lovely times. And when he left, I wondered why I’d put up with so much, because I knew really that he didn’t want anything to change. Why would he, it all worked around him, he was the important one dong important things with important people.

I didn’t get the ending I felt I deserved, or expected, is my point. And that’s why I say try and find ways of working together and having mutual respect so both of you want to continue to be married. But also, if I’d known the outcome I hope I’d have had the courage to look out for my own happiness.

[dopenguinsdance]

I can't put in too much detail because it would be too outing. But yes to the awake at 3 am money problems because clients don't pay (sometimes for years, sometimes never) but the tax bill still has to be settled (charged on invoices, not receipts, so the harder you work, the more you pay even if no-ones paid you). Yes to your family relationships coming a very poor second to his work. Yes to feeling like a single parent most of the time. Yes to always putting yourself at the back of the queue. Yes to biting your tongue when people assume you're (very) well off but eccentric/miserly - old cars, no foreign holidays, make do and mend mentality. Truth is, most of the people I know in a similar position either had/have family money to set them up - evidenced by multiple children in private schools funded by trusts or GP, second ( and third) homes etc etc. We didn't - in our 40s, both state school kids, first in our families to go to uni, always paid our own way. Or, and there more than a few, people I know in this position, those who spend conspicuously, are always bragging about the latest holiday/purchase/expensive hobbies BUT have masses of debt and no fall plan back at all. I'm proud of our joint worth ethic and love my DH to bits. No, it's not the life I imagined ( I assumed we'd have more time together and fewer money worries) but I'm pretty level headed (I think) and I've had to deal with some tough stuff especially as a child. Maybe that's helped me to manage my expectations & count my blessings? Also, the fact that he's an incredibly kind, intelligent and lovely man who does understand the stress his job puts on our family. Like most people, we've lost out financially during lockdown but it has given him some perspective and he's actively exploring new ways to cut down on work hours. The point I'm trying to make is that to be a successful lawyer you have to have a certain mindset. There's a very fine line between doing the job and being the job, if that makes any sense? If you're the sort of person who's existence is validated and enriched by what you do, then it might not be possible to do/be anything else. Especially if you're really good at it. The bottom line is this; would your life be better without your lawyer DP or just different?

[eurochick]

*spent, not didn't


Incidentally, I'm also married to another City lawyer who has made similar choices.

[eurochick]

It is definitely a choice. This sort of culture is/was encouraged in City law - make the junior lawyers think the work hard/play hard culture is cool and those at the top coin it in. But most people get to a point, often when they have a life changing event such as having kids or experiencing a bereavement, that makes them realise there is more to life. They either take their foot off the gas a little in the role they are in or make a change to something different.

I'm a city lawyer. I spent many years in US firms where the sort of behaviour you describe is encouraged. I quite enjoyed it for a while. But I'm in my 40s now with a family and don't want to work like that. I'm still in a city law firm, but one that is a notch down from where I didn't my early career. I'm still getting top quality work, but the pay is a bit lower (still in the top 1% though) and the expectations are commensurate. I made a choice. I have half an eye on getting back to the top top flight when my daughter is a bit older but maybe I will have other priorities by then.

[RedcurrantPuff]

@Normaigai

I'm a lawyer and I agree it's a type. It's actually not the job making him work like this - he wants to work like this. There are plenty of jobs / positions in law where this isn't required, even at partner level. I think you'd find if he changed jobs it would be the same - he's a workaholic. I am too so I recognise it (although I am not this bad!). The problem is (corporate) law encourages these types and often they're held up as models. It is a choice though.

Talk to him but this is who you married. Unless he actually wants to scale back, you need to accept this is him (and decide if you want to live like this).

This

[RB68]

he is not doing it for you and the children is he - what do you get? Remind him of the deathbed quote - you never regret the money you could have made but you do regret the life you haven't lived, the loved ones you no longer connect to the childhoods that passed you by. Its the whole Mary Poppins theme. Not sure how you get through to them - I divorced mine. He never saw the cost to me to get where he wanted and just took it without a backward glance. Glad I never had kids with him to be honest

[DE8ORAH]

You are all going to laugh at this but I tried to talk to him last week but we were both busy and he, in particular, didn't have time. So I sent him a "points to discuss" e-mail and he still hasn't got back to me. He has already acknowledged that he wouldn't have left an e-mail hanging like that for a client

I’m not laughing.

About a year after we split up ( but before the divorce ) , my ex suggested that we get back together again. This was mainly driven by how hard he was finding it to run his own home without staff ie me.

I asked him to send me paper outlining his proposals and how it would be different from last time. He never sent it - said he was too busy.

He mentioned it in the passing several times again “ Well I wanted to reconcile for the sake of the children but you wouldn’t consider it “, so I was able to remind him about that paper.

Of course it wasn’t that he was too busy, it was that he didn’t want to change. And he had no intentions of putting anything in writing or making any commitments that he could be held to.

He thought I would fall for his charming words but he wasn’t willing to change one iota. All he wanted was for me to move back in and for things for go back to what they were - staff at home, no demands on him.

His favourite phrase when I confronted him on issues was “ plausible deniability”.

[Ancientruins]

Yetmorecrap and MsTSwift what you say makes a lot of sense.

I have to go and do other stuff now but DE8ORAH I have just read your post and without wishing to sound over-dramatic, it's struck a chill in my heart I must admit. Thanks for it nonetheless.

“ Hope deferred makes the heart sick” should have been the title of this thread.

[Fleurchamp]

If you don't mind me asking OP but how old are you and DH? Your DC sound older than mine (mine are primary age) and I do fear we are heading down the road that you are.

What is the plan for retiring/ cutting back on work?

Do you like spending time with your DH?

[Ancientruins]

at "come to Jesus" chat. That is definitely what is required.

As is a sabbatical. I will talk to him again.

You are all going to laugh at this but I tried to talk to him last week but we were both busy and he, in particular, didn't have time. So I sent him a "points to discuss" e-mail and he still hasn't got back to me. He has already acknowledged that he wouldn't have left an e-mail hanging like that for a client.

Vicky I know he is going to say that he is planning on reducing his hours over the next decade until he has a consultant-type role ...it's whether I can believe him or not that is the question.

Fleurchamp it's definitely worse during lockdown. Hopes raised and feeling happy because he actually at home! Crashing disappointment because he is home but not actually available. So near and yet so far!

[yetmorecrap]

This isnt just a lawyer thing or even a city thing (And I worked in the city many years ago) it’s the same in many things where you work for yourself or are at consultant level— even in ‘fun’ industries especially if you have USA customers/clients . I would suggest making sure you have a pretty full
Life yourself once lockdown / restrictions ends and become self focussed on you and the kids- If you want a much closer more together marriage I would have a big chat , if there can’t be any compromise then it may be better to accept this doesn’t work for you. I agree with others that this isn’t all about the job, part of it is about the self worth he gets from the job and being needed and maybe money too if he’s that way motivated.

[DE8ORAH]

Have name changed for this.

Everyone telling you it’s a type and his choice are correct. You say “ no he’s not “ and then go on to give examples of how he is EXACTLY like that type.

He will never change until he is too old or too ill to work. I’ve been to funerals of men like this and their colleagues all say

“ What a great guy he was - he was working right to the end, even in hospital between his chemotherapy sessions / before his heart bypass”.

That’s what these men live for . Yes of course he will SAY he lives for you and the kids. But look at his actions not his words.

I used to be married to one of them. It was always going to be better in 6- 12 months when X or Y happened. Then it was another and another excuse. All of these excuses were entirely plausible. Of course they were - that’s their job, to be plausible!

He worked all the time. Weekends, holidays. Nothing stopped him. He worked on our wedding day - the date was changed twice to accommodate important cases.

He spent most of my labours outside on the phone.

The kids never saw him.

We didn’t need the money and he wasn’t even super well paid, considering how much he earned for his firm. But he would never cut down.

He was going to go to 4 days a week at 50 and 3 days at 55, then work 3 days a week until he was 65.

None of that happened. He’s in his 60s now and still billing 2,500 hours per year. Plus of course all his non billable hours.

For those of you who are not good at mental maths - that’s 48 hours a week, every single week of the year. And he has other management work on top, so he probably works 60 hours a week.

He has many health problems and I’m be surprised if he lives into his 70s. He won’t stop until he has a stroke or a heart attack - very likely with his medical history.

I divorced him years ago. He hardly ever had the kids and his main concern on divorce was how he was going to manage the housework etc in his own home. He hates staff because their take time to manage.

He can only relate to the kids now that they are older and can have intelligent conversations about his work. He had no interest in them as children until they were 13-14.

This is your life OP. You cannot change your husband and he doesn't want to change himself.

So stay and make a life for yourself and your children without him. Buy in help.

Or go.

Don’t do what I did, which was spend the best years of my life hoping he would change. And struggling to do everything myself.

In the end it was the constant lies and broken promises that finished me off. The book of proverbs says “ Hope deferred makes the heart sick”. In the end I wasn’t broken hearted, I was just sick fed up waiting.

[MsTSwift]

It’s because if he steps away he is scared there is nothing there. He gets recognition, adulation and self worth from his work and has done for years so walking away back into “civilian” life is going to be hard. It’s like a weird addiction.

[Ancientruins]

Fleurchamp the loneliness is the worst bit! It's a good strategy about ring-fencing Saturday night's for family but being honest, I am not sure at this stage that's going to be enough. I feel awful writing that down in black and white though.

Atleastpretendtocare yes, during lockdown, he does eat with us a few nights a week and then gets back to it. We occasionally have a rushed lunch together when teens are out of the house (not often atm).


Normaigi
You are changing your position slightly though - working to 8/9 is probably something inevitable in (what I assume is) city law. Never finishing a conversation isn't. Neither is not switching off whilst your wife is giving birth

Yes, I must admit saying "he never stops" is hyperbolic. He did work all hours when younger. And he did take work calls during long labours! Now he is older, it's more accurate to say that when he does stop he is totally wrung out so doesn't have the energy to do much else. And he seems stressed and disengaged. Not just to me either. Numerous doctors have told him that he needs a three week holiday with no work calls at all. He says it would be too much work to get to the position where he could take that amount of time off. And again, as MsTSwift says, the consequences of a potential cock up are huge.


Pog100 absolutely and that's why I am posting. I already have a major project planned for after lockdown and when last teen leaves home. I suppose, if dh doesn't change, the choice is whether I want him there "in the background" or whether I should plan for a fresh start on my own.

Thinking this through, being entirely honest, I don't want to leave right now but will I want to in another five years or so? I think that's quite likely sadly.

Thanks again for everyone's post. They are certainly food for thought.