Would this annoy you (porn-related)?

[MaybeTheFinalStraw]

Name changed for this one.


DP and I have been together 15 years, one child, lots of relationship ups and downs but something that has kept us both here.

He is in his early 30s and has a few mates (some older, some the same age) that are largely single and joke around about porn - basically sending videos to each other on a WhatsApp group that are ‘funny’ because they are in some way semi-grotesque (think woman pinging Ping Pong balls out her of vagina kind of thing). To my knowledge because of his version of events, he doesn’t share any of these videos/pictures and has been quite objective and critical of it - although I’ve always been quite sure he does watch a bit of porn, he’s been quite disparaging about his mates’ fixation with this kind of thing and some of the stuff he is sent. He’s made out he’s ‘not that kind of guy’ and I believed him.

Yesterday morning I saw his phone left on the coffee table overnight. I don’t think I’ve checked his phone for about 8 years (there is some history of inappropriate behaviour) but for whatever reason, I had a nudge to check it. I looked at his search history and saw loads of searches for ‘latex angel’ and a video on a website that had been looked at, as well as some gay porn searches but no videos. This occurred yesterday morning while I was working from home and presumably when he nipped to a friend’s who happens to live down the road or possibly in the half hour before he left the house (the only times he wasn’t with me). I confronted him immediately and he made out his friend had used his phone without his consent then his story gradually changed to ‘it’s banter and laughs amongst the lads’, says most men do it and it’s none of my business. He then spent all day badgering me to have sex because I was wearing a bikini (it was very hot) and couldn’t understand why I didn’t feel up for it and was giving him the cold shoulder.

He’s now trying to turn this around on me and saying I’m being over sensitive. I have said that I don’t like the deceit rather than being worried about him looking at porn - the way he pretended to not partake in that behaviour and actually, he does. Probably frequently because I doubt yesterday was an irregularity. I feel like he has presented one version of himself to me and reserved another for his friends, which I have seen plenty of men do to women over the years. He is usually very open with me about his personality in quite an unusual way, warts and all, but this is making me question how much I maybe don’t know after all?

I’m also appalled that his sense of ‘humour’ is just so basic and juvenile and borderline misogynistic, like all his idiotic friends. You can tell a lot about a person by their friends I guess! Although I still don’t really feel sure of the ‘it’s funny’ narrative because the video I watched from his search history wasn’t ‘funny’ like some people might think a vagina ping pong video is, although I only watched a few seconds.

This feels like the final straw in a long relationship of ups and downs and he is really not that great a partner overall so would appreciate your perspectives on this.

[yetmorecrap]

OP you are totally entitled to find this unsavoury and not ok. For the mumsnetters on here don’t give a shit what partners crack off too in secret- well good for you- but many women do care and find it totally changes their view on a person. That’s just life, unless you are up front about it and accept it may not be an ok practice for a partner, it’s no different to gambling, excessive drinking or concealing huge debt— it’s something that someone else isn’t ok with — so if you are into it and expect to watch it— then best to be honest and upfront about it

[Girlmum91]

I couldn't really care less about what porn my partner watches as I watch it myself sometimes. Just because someone watches certain videos online doesn't necessarily mean they're into that stuff in real life.

You do say you want honesty from him but I can understand him lying as you come off as very critical of porn and he knows you'd be disgusted with him if he told the truth. He IS that kind of guy and he was obviously pretending not to be because he wanted it to work with you and you're not into that type of thing.

I think it's pretty normal to be a slightly different person with your mates than your partner although I can see why you'd be upset at finding out he isn't who he has portrayed himself to be.

This wouldn't be the final straw for me but if he's not a great partner in other ways then it doesn't sound like you two are very compatible. The way you describe him makes him seem like he's in his early 20s.

[IceCreamSummer20]

Refusing to believe that women are capable of actively consenting, enjoying and choosing a career in the sex industry is just as misogynistic. Total bullshit. Would you want to do it? Didn’t think so...

[IceCreamSummer20]

I just don’t understand anyone who defends porn of any kind - there is no ‘safe’ kind. I have known people who worked in the industry, at the ‘safe’ end. They are damaged individuals and in no way did it do any of them any good. It wasn’t even that well paid. Gave one person I know such severe physical problems she now can’t have children.

[IWantT0BreakFree]

But not all porn is exploitative or abusive. I’ve known of distant friends of friends in porn who made a conscious choice and were very happy in the industry. I think we can be smart about where we source porn from. That certainly helps.

For women who just don’t like porn (and that’s fair enough) claiming that all females in the industry are abused and exploited is a convenient line. Refusing to believe that women are capable of actively consenting, enjoying and choosing a career in the sex industry is just as misogynistic.

I absolutely accept that not every woman involved in porn (or any other sex work) is being coerced or abused. I'm not sure many people actually hold that position. The issue is, how can a consumer guarantee that they are watching a consenting actress who has not been exploited? I believe that porn consumers bear that responsibility and I firmly believe that the vast, vast majority of porn consumers are doing absolutely nothing to even try and consume porn "responsibly". I think it's OK to vocally disapprove of that. I don't think the people who are happy for some women to be abused and exploited so that they can enhance the experience of masturbating deserve to be protected from shame particularly. I do agree that shame isn't necessarily very productive but I'm not worried about their hurt feelings, put it that way.

What about the people suffering psychological and physical harm working in Chinese sweatshops for a lot of the standard goods we have in this country? Not all porn is of abused people, people could always pick and choose like they do with other products with unsavoury industries?

I'm not really sure why you'd assume that I don't care about sweatshop workers. People can care about more than one thing. I try spend my money as ethically as I can in all areas (clothing, toiletries, cleaning products, energy suppliers etc). At the end of the day, you either care about people or you don't. I imagine the people who don't care whether they are watching consensual sex or not, also don't care whether their T-shirts involve slave labour.

[DonnaQuixote]

For women who just don’t like porn (and that’s fair enough) claiming that all females in the industry are abused and exploited is a convenient line

We hate porn because it harms women and children in and out of the industry, but I do understand that some people are just too selfish to care for anyone else but themselves and their kicks.

In contrast, porn is just an erotic play. No-one pretends it’s real or plausible. It’s creating a fantasy, in the same way as a book or play, just with erotic content.

Porn IS real because it involves real people doing real sex acts.
Porn IS real because it affects real relationships, usually men pressuring women in hurtful sex practices seen in porn (anal, choking, rough sex...)
Porn IS real because 25% of men under 35 are impotent because of wanking to it, according to latets Dutch study.
Porn IS real because porn addiction is a real mental disorder.

[BubblyBarbara]

What about the women who are mentally harmed by participating in the porn industry?

What about the people suffering psychological and physical harm working in Chinese sweatshops for a lot of the standard goods we have in this country? Not all porn is of abused people, people could always pick and choose like they do with other products with unsavoury industries?

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

@IWantT0BreakFree Good point about me being hypocritical over the shaming. I just had a think about that. My comments aren’t intended to shame, I think that’s the difference. The person I was talking to actively wanted to shame and I think that’s very different to expressing a personal view.

My line is about causing physical harm which isn’t pleasurable (as in BDSM). I think that’s a fairly lenient and reasonable line but accept its personal. Anyone who thinks differently, I still don’t think deliberately shaming them is the answer. That’s the point I was making earlier. Actually listening to each other and having an informed discussion is the only way to bring about change.

I was just talking to my DP about this thread. We were chatting about the concerns of abuse in some sections. And of course there is. But not all porn is exploitative or abusive. I’ve known of distant friends of friends in porn who made a conscious choice and were very happy in the industry. I think we can be smart about where we source porn from. That certainly helps.

For women who just don’t like porn (and that’s fair enough) claiming that all females in the industry are abused and exploited is a convenient line. Refusing to believe that women are capable of actively consenting, enjoying and choosing a career in the sex industry is just as misogynistic.

I actually think there are far more harmful influences in mainstream culture. I mean in reference to a point elsewhere about societal norms being shaped by porn. The conduct and attitudes of certain celebrities normalises unhealthy attitudes to love and sex because it’s portrayed as attainable. In contrast, porn is just an erotic play. No-one pretends it’s real or plausible. It’s creating a fantasy, in the same way as a book or play, just with erotic content.

There should be stronger and more robust regulation, I agree. But porn and the sex trade are so taboo, the government are too scared to tackle it meaningfully.

[IWantT0BreakFree]

@ExhaustedFlamingo it's all very well saying that we shouldn't use shaming language around porn use, but you yourself have admitted to having a boundary as to what you believe is acceptable and what isn't. You've said you don't believe the type of porn described by OP is acceptable, and therefore anybody who watches it and reads your comments is potentially going to feel shamed. Why do you think your line in the sand is THE line? Don't your remarks so apply to yourself?

Providing no-one is getting hurt and there's consent, I don't see the issue with showing off naked bodies.

Here's the crux of it. It seems like you're only recognising obvious physical harm (like fisting that causes an anal prolapse). What about the women who are mentally harmed by participating in the porn industry? And regarding consent, how does a porn consumer go about ensuring that the women on their screens have definitely meaningfully consented to what is happening? People who object to porn aren't just pearl-clutching prudes. We object because we know that this is an industry that harms women and where consent cannot be guaranteed. The issue is not "showing off naked bodies".

[heyday]

So many people seem to have a darker, secretive side to them that they keep hidden from their partners. I guess it's easier to be more daring or outrageous now with absolutely everything so accessible on the internet.

[Illegitiminoncarborundum]

In the minority here but wouldn't bother me in the slightest!

[GettingUntrapped]

IP, you sound like you are more evolved than your partner. Wishing you strength.

[DonnaQuixote]

I know lesbian porn is the most popular category for men. But it certainly is not for women!

Yes, it is! "According to their data, the top category searched by women varies across the world, but the overall most popular category among women was "lesbian."( according to Pornhub's internal data, 2019).

@ExhaustedFlamingo

You may like porn just as you may like cocaine or junk food, but that doesn't mean it is healthy part of your life. The problem with porn is not stigma, the problem is in it's promotion of unhealthy body image, violence and misogyny, hurtful and extreme sex practices, addiction, killing love and intimacy between partners, causing ED in men and many more... If you think porn is harmless fun then you better educate yourself.

[OhYeahYouSuck]

Lesbian porn is very popular for women. It's because they can imagine what it feels like so they enjoy watching it.

This sounds like the final straw OP. Porn aside, he sounds like a shit partner so I'd leave for that alone.

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

@Timekeeper2 - absolutely agree. For lots of women, porn is part of a healthy sex life but there's such a stigma, it's still taboo to admit it.

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

@DonnaQuixote - it depends what your motives are. You say you think porn would be better driven underground. So, in other words, it's fine for people to engage in it, you're not actually interested in educating or changing attitudes. Seems a bit of a contradiction given you're so opposed to it? Also, by driving it underground, you're making the very thing you object to more likely. If porn is properly regulated and in the open, there will be better working conditions, less abuse, etc.

I'd probably strongly disagree that porn is normalised. Look at this thread - there's virtually no-one saying that porn is fine.

Shaming never works. You don't tackle the issue, you don't effect change. You don't stop the unwanted behaviour. All you do is make it subversive. If your goal is to stop it, then education and discussion is the right way to tackle it. I can't think of a single thing that has been effectively tackled by shaming someone.

Also, even if lesbian porn is the most popular category - and I don't know the answer whether it is or not - that doesn't mean that no-one is looking at the men. Sure, more people might be looking at women. Women are gorgeous. But equally, there is still a very significant number of people who are into the men too.

Watching other people engage in sexual acts may not be arousing for you. But that's not the same for everyone. Where I think you have a point is ensuring that the porn isn't abusive - and you're not going to achieve that by driving it underground. Healthy, non-judgemental discussion is the only way things will change.

I'm not going to keep banging on about this, and I have to go out now. If you don't like any kind of porn, I totally get it - but whether you like it or not, there's a lot of people that do. To me, it's nothing more than an erotic play. Providing no-one is getting hurt and there's consent, I don't see the issue with showing off naked bodies.

[Timekeeper2]

@DonnaQuixote

Really? So why is lesbian porn the most popular category for women then?

First I've heard of it! I know lesbian porn is the most popular category for men. But it certainly is not for women! Unless things have changed in the last 5 years.

[DonnaQuixote]

@ExhaustedFlamingo

I disagree, shame has a purpose, it enforces social norms. We would all be better of if porn would be underground not normalized as it is.

@Timekeeper2

Really? So why is lesbian porn the most popular category for women then?

[Timekeeper2]

Agreed, ExhaustedFlamingo. Many heterosexual women watch porn for the men, not the women. Should we be ashamed for 'degrading men'? I'm not saying women in the movies/clips aren't degraded, but doesn't it go both ways? Are men being degraded as well? And does that mean us women who like to look at straight porn for the men, or as in a lot of women I know, look at gay porn for the men - should be ashamed? People are forgetting that men perform in these movies and clips too. And while men like looking at women, a lot of us women like looking at the men.

[Timekeeper2]

@DonnaQuixote

I think to a certain extent, it's very controlling to say to someone "you shouldn't watch porn". What they do in their own private fantasy world is a personal matter.

Porn is not a fantasy, it's REAL people f*cking.

Also a lot of the language I hear when porn is discussed is very shaming

As it should be, everyone who enjoys looking at images of women being degraded should be shamed for it.

What about those of us women who watch porn to look at the men?

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

**“Also a lot of the language I hear when porn is discussed is very shaming“

“As it should be, everyone who enjoys looking at images of women being degraded should be shamed for it.“

Whether you like porn or not, the way forward is not shaming someone. It’s a shitty attitude. God forbid someone holds an opinion that differs to yours. And if you actually want to try and change their mind, shaming certainly won’t work - you just drive it deeper underground.

[backseatcookers]

I think you need to almost remove the word porn from this when you speak about it to yourself or him.

He enjoys (either for sexual pleasure or entertainment - arguably the latter is even worse) watching women be physically assaulted and abused to the point of injury.

[Oldbagface]

The more I think about it the more I am sad for you. Please LTB.

[GilbertMarkham]

*rolled in

[GilbertMarkham]

Oh sorry, your reference level was rape a d child sex abuse (bestiality tends to be filled in as a reference in this debate) ...
Still feel the sane though, should our bench mark really be rape & child sex abuse for assessing the acceptability of porn?

That's like, I dunno, a reference of not killing someone as a bench mark for quality of medical care. Or not severely abusing someone as a bench mark for home caring.