Casual relationship, do they ever turn serious? Not sure how to approach things...

[myteadontlie]

I will do my best not to drip feed; situation I am in is very confusing but due to its nature I guess
I have enough time to think (and sadly obssess sometimes) about it.

In early December I met a guy on tinder. We both were looking for something casual. We quickly hit it off, chatted for hours daily and decided to meet… we met almost 2 months later due to family commitments and distance between us.

He is 40, no kids, had 2 serious relationships in his life, one lasted 2 years, the other 5. He ended things with previous partner in June last year, mutual decision as it turned into more friendship like relationship and they just knew they were not right for each other. He comes from a place 1.5hr drive from me but currently lives 3hrs drive, 4 on the train away. Owns a house but rented it and currently rents further away with his married brother.
When we met, he said he is looking for someone nice he could get on with, to meet up now and then mainly for sex but if things turn into something more, he is open to that possibility in the future. Explained that this year is crucial for him as he is developing his own business and he just doesn’t have time for a proper relationship. It suited me just fine then, actually he was more 'romantic' to start with, I was like: no, I really want just a casual thing. I don't think anything more will happen for me in any nearest future, gave up on love etc. But things changed pretty quickly and I started falling for him before we even met.

Me: 37, 1 primary age child, separated almost 5 years ago, DC dad is present , we are civil atm although he cheated, fathered an unwanted child with the OW, did loads of really nasty things to me and basically totally ruined our life and my self-confidence. He was my only proper relationship, we were together for 12 years. I have my own house and regular ‘9 to 5’ work.
Since the split I had a string of dates and 3 of them turned into meaningless arrangements, fwb ones, all of them were helping for short as I felt wanted but at the same time they continued to ruin my self-esteem, as I just felt so unworthy of love and as if I just didn’t deserve anything more. All these fwb ‘finished’ things with me because I kind of showed them that maybe I would eventually want something more (which I know I do) and they just didn’t want. All of them were not right for me, I always knew they were just tossers or not partner material, initially I didn’t even fancy them that much but was desperate for male company and sex was ok and I didn’t want to be lonely. I don’t have any regrets or sadness they finished, I was just sad and humiliated that they decided they don’t want me as a partner, nothing more. Deep down I crave family life or proper decent partnership and I know it was wrong to go on with these arrangements, as I knew they were not right potential partners.

With the new man I knew pretty quickly that he is different. I tried to convince myself that I am just desperate&lonely again, but meeting him took the things to a whole new level. He is just great in many ways – I fancy him massively, we get on so well, we always have stuff to talk about and the sexual side of it is amazing. He seems to be the most caring and respectful guy I have ever met, has his faults but I am old enough to know there is no such things as perfect humans. When we met, I knew pretty instantly that he is more than I could actually wish for... I calmed down a bit since then, as feelings were very intense and a bit overwhelming for me to start with, but I still see him in a very positive - yet realistic light.
I fell in love with him. He knows it although I never said it upfront.

Now, problem. He cannot commit. Says he doesn’t want to be in a serious relationship now, that he has too much on his plate to deal with now, he just wants to stay in touch, meet when we both can and ‘see what happens’. Says that when we met I was everything and more he could ask for but we are in different life stages and he just doesn’t know now what will happen.
The thing is we meet very rarely, once a month for a couple of days and in the next 4/5 months it might be even less, as I have lots happening on too with my job and he has his family commitments and work. He is very close in a good way to his family and brothers, so he does find time for them and his business is his main focus. Due to its nature he works evening and weekends a lot, there are certain times every day when he needs to be on the computer online, he needs a couple of computers to work on, so him working from mine is not really an option. Realistically we can meet for 2/3 days every couple of weeks that he needs to book as days off and make up later. We met a couple of times so far, once stayed at the hotel, twice he stayed at mine and once I visited for him for 5 days, he had to work almost 3 days of that. So in total we spent about 10 full days together since we first met 2.5 months ago. Only the brother he lives with know that we meet, his family or friends don’t, we are not friends on fb. We talk quite a lot about my child but he doesn’t want to meet her (anyway, I would not introduce her that early and never ever though about it with the other guys but with him I do, so in 6months, why not…).

I know most of readers probably already think that he is using/will use me and I should end it, as clearly I want more and am not totally happy. Yes, I am not happy and it’s frustrating but on the other hand I enjoy our time so so much and I do care about him so much… the fact that he is honest and doesn’t play me or promise me stuff makes me even more attracted to him.

I do not know what to do, though. Should I just keep meeting him and let things develop if they are meant to be, or should I let it go? A part of me tells me that he is worth waiting for and I am just insecure, negative and obsessing and overthinking. The other side of me (the ‘experienced’, hurt and bitter one) whispers that it will end up in tears as he won’t commit…. And I should just end this.

The thing is I don’t want to end this. I want to give it a chance and I am happy to wait for him till he sorts himself and his life out, I am just angry with myself that I cannot slow down and enjoy things more and that might scare him off. Saw him last weekend and we spoke about it, I got a bit tipsy and got a bit excited and so on, no drama or tears but he said he does feel a bit less comfortable now as he doesn’t want me to hurt in any way. And it finished with him stroking my hand and saying ‘slow down’…

For now I decide to wait for as lnog as I manage and try to take any pressure off him and myself. Meet when we can, enjoy time together and focus on my life… and see what happens. Then, if he still want this loose arrangement in 6-9 months, decide how I feel and finish it if he doesn’t want to be with me. By being with me I mean being an official couple and start talking about meeting our families, not moving in together or marrying! Is that a good plan?

PS. Yes, I know I am insecure and have issues and sound desperate for a relationship… My self esteem is very low, due to having weight issues and being a ‘giver’ (that wasn’t good enough for my ex, obviously)… I am receiving counselling and try my best to fix myself. It all stems from my totally fucked up marriage failure and, despite having a secure childhood and upbringing, developing this anxious attachement style in my adult life… I know I have issues and need to focus on myself, but on the other hand something tells me I should not give up on this man, as he definitely is a keeper.

[Rabbit01]

I have been in a relationship like this and it left me a wreck, a tearful unhappy wreck. Could you get the strength to end it and then try to be happy just as you, treat yourself and your dad to lovely things. I feel sure you'd be happier, stay strong. You sound lovely xx

[0live]

Great post wifeyfish

[WifeyFish]

Deadsouls

You are so right. In time I came to realise that he wasn't right for me either. That not knowing what you want isn't actually that attractive when you take away the challenge of getting them to realise what they're missing out on. I also hated the way he turned some of my best qualities into negatives...his confusion would stem from things like "we've got too much in common" or "you're too lovely" and I'd contort myself into being the version of me I thought he'd want, trying to be as low maintenance as possible so he wouldn't feel pressured. Waiting until "not now" became the moment when he couldn't live without me. Even as I walked he told me he knew he'd regret letting me go, but at that point no amount of words would make up for his lack of action.

[Deadsouls]

wifeyfish

Very wise words. I've learnt the same lesson except I couldn't articulate it as well as you did. I sort of used to assume that when a guy says 'I'm not ready', that it meant:
I'm not ready now but I might be at some unspecified point in the future
Or/
I'm not ready because I've been hurt before/I'm confused but I might be
Or/
I'm not ready now but I really like you and don't want to f**k it up, so I might be at some point

But actually the simple truth is: 'I'm not ready', means 'I don't want a relationship specifically with you'

The 'I'm not ready' feels also kind of cruel because it's open ended. It leaves a door open. You're always left hoping that it might not be now but it could be at some point.

It can be said in a way to let you down gently, or they don't want to hurt your feelings, or they lack emotional honesty, or they are emotional manipulators and want to keep you hooked in. I genuinely believe that, on the whole, it's a case of lacking the capacity to be emotionally honest. And not wanting to deal with any potential emotional reaction.

I was once involved with a guy in a vague, unspecified 'friendship', and I kept hanging in there, hoping that if I was really 'cool' and 'easy-going' (casual), then he might change his mind after all.
However, as you wrote, when he said he wasn't ready. He really did mean, 'I don't want a relationship with you' except he lacked the courage to say that.
He went on to get into a relationship with someone else, 3 months after we'd had our last dalliance. He said he was in love with her. As far as I know they're still together (we're no longer in contact). The fact is the signs were there plain as day, and deep down I knew it. But I couldn't admit it. So I held onto the hope of 'maybe'. It doesn't mean there was anything wrong with me, or that she was better, it just means he didn't want a relationship with me.

[Nomoreworkathome]

I do know this man a bit, I know he is genuine as much as he can be... and I am not ready to walk away now

Then why post asking for advice then

[Cricrichan]

Why doesn't he want you on fb? I have about 500 people on fb and only one who I'm in a relationship with. No way would I have sex with a man who isn't at least a fb friend. Op it gets worse the more you explain. And this intuition is what's led you to seek advice here.

He likes you as a friend who he enjoys sex with every now and then. But you're at the bottom of his priorities and that's where you'll remain until he finds someone else.

Cool it like you suggest. Start dating other guys. If he's​ even slightly into you, he'll come running

[WifeyFish]

Oh OP I've been there. It started as a FWB arrangement as we'd both had relationships end recently and neither were ready for more...7 months down the line I was falling for him in a big way. He told me he was confused, didn't want to lose me, just wasn't ready for more...I hung on his every word, convinced I wouldn't be like his exes who'd cheated on him and abandoned him. I'd wait it out and be there when he was ready. Except what he'd meant to say was he didn't want a relationship with me. Things came to a head when we had an argument one morning. We lived 5 minutes apart and he'd always said these things were best dealt with face to face so I hopped in the car and drove over. Long story he was in bed with someone else. He told me he wasn't that into her. He was still confused. They didn't have the spark we had. I walked away and cut him out of my life completely. The funny thing is that he's still with that girl he didn't have a spark with many years later.

It taught me a valuable lesson that when a guy says it's not the right time/he's not ready he generally means he just doesn't want a relationship with you.

[Nomoreworkathome]

OP you have much good advice but you seem to be in denial. This man has no intention of making you a permanent part of his life. You can try and rationalise it as much as you want but he is not interested beyond the odd shag here and there. You are convenient to him and nothing else. Either walk away now or set yourself up for more difficulties later on. Your choice.

[Mangoandpassionfruit]

I could have written elements of your post. I am a little further on, believe him when he says he does not want commitment. Believe him when he says it would be difficult to explain who you are on FB. If people want to make things happen they do, they really do. Waiting for someone who is unavailable for what ever reason is heartbreaking and soul destroying.

[Deadsouls]

Of course, this is your life. keep checking in with how you feel though when you're waiting and seeing. Is the situation and the 'not knowing' taking over your thinking and your life to an unhealthy degree? Is it starting to make you feel anxious? How are you feeling about yourself? Consider also how you will feel if he sleeps with or meets with other women.
Would you be happy to go along with that? As you aren't in a committed relationship this is a possibility. Is that something that has come up? That you can each meet with other people? If its going to devastate you, if he were to say he wanted to meet with other women, then its something to think about.

[myteadontlie]

OK... I don't think I changed what I wrote. Just wanted to be more precise, give more details about how it all was and is.
Don't think I am a booty call... to much effort to be a booty call being 200 miles away... but yes, it is an arrangement when he said openly he does not commitment now.
I don't think I will post more here now, as I start feeling like an idiot and a mug with no boundariea and self respect... and I do not need this... I do know this man a bit, I know he is genuine as much as he can be... and I am not ready to walk away now. When he gives me clear evidence he won't consider moving things forward or when I come to conclusion that I don't wont to continue this, I will end it.
Thank you everyone for your comments, I appreciate your viewpoint. It is precious in many ways, but I am a firm believer that you do need to consider your intuition, your inner voice too... and also things in life and written down might seem to be a bit different. So I will wait for a couple of months. Hopefully update in the future.

[Deadsouls]

OP

You are coming across now as though you are desperately trying to convince yourself that what you write is true. You have changed what you wrote from the beginning to now. From being obsessed and liking someone more than they like you, pursuing him,to now saying that actually you do share the same life goals, he does actually want marriage and kids, but just not now. And actually you don't want them now either. You're willing to wait for X amount of time until he reaches the same place as you, which is in some vague future. You are saying different things, I think maybe you'd like to think you are casual but actually you are not. And the whole FB thing, it doesn't have to be that complicated to accept a friend request.
You're not in a relationship with him. He is not making any commitment to you. Where do you stand on this?

[Adora10]

Oh dear, you really are in deep and can't even see what is in front of you OP, you are a secret, nobody knows about you and being a friend on Facebook doesn't mean he's advertising you as his wife!

Sorry but have some self respect; as well as the non committal you are in effect non existent in his regular daily life.

I honestly have no idea why you want to continue with a man that sees you as nothing more than a booty call.

I'd be very careful about making your assumptions, he could very well be in a relationship; you says he's not a player but yet he only wants a FWB, that's exactly what a player is OP.

I am sorry to be harsh but I think you really need to base your future decisions on facts, not what you see in your romantic head; you seem to have an excuse for every bit of dodgy behaviour he displays.

[myteadontlie]

Right, re facebook thing... we both have open profiles and we write on messenger. I am friends with his 'company' fb account. I asked him if he will accept my request if I'd send it and he said yeah he would but he will have lots of explaining to his family who I am etc, and he is not ready for it now. Then he started thinking aloud that maybe he will just tell his parents he has met a girl online, but he just doesn't want to think of it now as his mum wants him to find 'someone' and get married and have kids etc. He laughed that 'she would marry us in a month'.
We both generally have abit careful approach to fb, have few friends each and often laugh how much attention people pay to portraying their perfect lives and relationships on social media. All in all I am not bothered about being fb friends.
His fb relationship status is single. There is a number of pictures with his ex there, I scanned his profile and all details and timing are the same as what he told me a out himself. He talks a lot about his family and past, I know their names and where they work. I know his home address and we were at his parents house for a bit when they went on holiday. I do not feel like he is hiding me to an unhealthy level... rather to the level that suits him now.
He keeps homself to himself generally and hasn't got many friends so unsure if he told any of them about me. His brother and brother's wife know we meet and he tells them we get on and meet when we can. He speaks very positively about both exes. I don't see him as player.

[Adora10]

Why does he keep you a secret OP, why does only his brother know about you and why won't he accept your friendship on FB, massive red flag that you seem to be ignoring.

[Kikikaakaa]

I think you need to stop hoping and wondering and just ask: are we moving towards and exclusive relationship with a future or do you want to keep things casual? There is nothing wrong with this conversation. Then you will know. I had it with my BF when we were about 3 months in I think, and just said 'are we giving this a proper go then?'. It's ok to ask someone where you stand without scaring them off with all your 'needs'.
If you receive a wishy washy non answer from him then I think that just shows you he isn't ready, then you can decide what to do, for you.

Once you start to develop feelings I don't buy into all this concept that you have to hide them and pretend you don't have them to stop scaring the other person off, what kind of relationship is that? And how is that healthy? This is why your mind runs riot because it's making up all its own conclusions.

[myteadontlie]

We did talk about our life goals and quite early knew there are quite similar. It was the main part of the whole attraction- realising that we might have had met someone who has similar outlook and values and maybe we might want to spend our lives together (his words, I only agreed). He does want marriage and kids, he knew he wanted it when he was with ex but also knew they were not right for each other. She was career focused and could not enjoy things and life, he said many times that what he likes about me is that I am so laid back and esentially a happy positive person, and I am much more relaxed than any girl he ever met. Yeah, he might be changing his mind now after seeing I am someone with problems and issues, but I guess he is mature enough to understand its normal.
Now, he is career focused for now, this year and maybe next couple of years will be intense but it's because he needs more independence and flexibility then to enjoy life. I genuinely think it is just different life stages we are at, and re kids... as much as I would want one, I am not desperate for one. Same with marriage and living together... as much as I would want marriage and a child and living together, I would much rather just have a decent loving partner.... even if not married or even if we could not have kids. I am 37 so realistically I have 3-5 years left to become a mum again... if at all. And even if I was properly together with anyone now, I would want to wait at least a year or 2 before trying for child, just to make sure that the relationship is solid enough and thag we have had enough couple time only.

[Kikikaakaa]

I think there is nothing wrong with enjoying the now, but inside your mind you admit you have already seen a point where you move with your child, leave your job, have another baby and you are willing to take a huge chance on a 'what if' that maybe one day it will happen. These are not unreasonable ideas to have of your life but this man is an ideal candidate on paper and not in reality. You don't know him anywhere near well enough yet to know enough about his personality to know that this could work long term.
From woman to woman I can see that time isn't on your side with fertility so you need to be wary of building a huge expectation in your mind.
This is one reason he wants to slow it down and I imagine what your counsellor is suggesting.
What we can see is you meeting a man and investing almost all your emotions into him, your hopes and dream for the future. His hopes and dreams are career based, not family/wife orientated and you could waste 2 years waiting and watching and come away with absolutely nothing.
Whereas if you focused your search for love on emotionally and physically available men who want a family and marriage this dream is more achievable.
The only way of knowing whether you should make this choice is to actually ask him 'do we have the same life goals?' This isn't asking him about marrying you, but whether he is even on the same book as you let alone page.
You can't base off chit chat what his long term intentions are.

I personally don't date people with this casual maybe attitude hoping they will love me enough to change, I am upfront. No casual sex. I want a relationship. I don't want more kids. I want to cohabit one day. I know all these things about me and I'm not ashamed of them so I don't pretend I don't want them. I don't hide them, it is who I am! And when I have been honest from the start it's weeded out the ones who don't want commitment. You need to be more direct and honest with yourself what you want from your own life

[springydaffs]

I think you need to be more hidden here op. You are telling him it all, when you've only known one another 4.5 months and rarely see one another.

I get it that the therapy process can make us generally much more open in our relationships than is wise. He doesn't need to be so in the know about you, you could do with being more mysterious and less readable.

The mistake I think was taking a long time before you met. He, at least, built up a fantasy about you - which is about him, not you. Now he's met you - and you're an open book - he's dragging his heels.

Back up a bit. Take control. Pace yourself.

[myteadontlie]

Anyway, thank you all for your comments... me writing here is not about getting ready made advice because I am too confused/fragile to make my own decisions... it's rather about gaining as many non biased opinions and filter it all through my 1st hand knowledge of situation. It just helps to look at things from various perspectives.
The sad thing about it all is that I promised to myself neber ever to be in a situation when I pursue someone or want some more than they want me... and it seems to be the case. I am just so tired oj a daily basis... I know I have lots to offer to an6 decent man, I know hundreds of women no way 'better' than me and they are in secure relationships and I am not...
The important part of al that problem is that I crave some decent adult company... I have friends but they are so busy with their lives ad all paired up or married. Recently, when I slowly started shifting from my 'normal' giving self, 2 of my close friends really disappointed me. Seems like I was great when I was happy me with almost no private life but now, when I need support, they don't have time or patience for me. And it feels like it is not because I am a negative or moaning horrible person but because I am not running around them... I just don't want to kewp pleasing people and adjusting my needs to theirs and actually meeting this guy and our chatshelped me to understand this! Ironic, isn't it.
I am not British and have no family in the UK. When I get ill or dd gets ill there is no one around to help, so this year her attendance at school and my pay really suffered a lot. Her dad can only see her on weekenda and usually puts his needs first.
Sometimes I feel very lonely.... and tired of being a single mum and dealing with kids... as my job is with kids, too. I would want a normal healthy partner and lover, not to necesarrily help me out but for companionship, passion and to support me emotionally. I want someone to meet regularly, even if its twice a month for some good 'me' time, when I can be just me, not a mum or a teacher. I am financially independent and I guess a good partner material... yes, a bit too fat but pretty and not looking my 37 years, have my own money and home, never expect any financial support and I am a natural 'giver' so people close to me always have my time and attention...so why things are not happening for me? I have been single for 5 fucking years, just fed up with that.
Here, that was to add to the whole picture of me and the situation... ehhhh.
I am currently on holiday in my home country and cannot even enjoy meeting my family today, as dd is ill again( always been super healthy, its just that last year)... and I myslef have tonsillitis, headache and I am just down because of how my life turned out:(

[AstrantiaMallow]

OP
Are you able to genuinely back off this relationship and see how it goes? If not, I think you're going to get very hurt. Ideally what would you like to happen now it's all in the open? He's said he can't make time for you. That's not going to change.

Do you not think he said 'casual' as in FWB when your 'casual' means something different to you? That said, I don't really understand why you said to him you were looking for casual when clearly you are not? Is it because you think no one would want you otherwise?

I say all this as someone who just couldn't hack 'casual' and hasn't ever done online dating but really reading you makes me feel you will end up more hurt by this guy than by your ex and the 3 'tossers' you previously dated.

[Deadsouls]

I don't see cooling off as playing games. I see it as setting boundaries.
Something that strikes me in what you write is that you attribute to him the positive changes you've made in your life. You say he makes you want to be a better version of yourself. But those attributes were within you anyway to begin with, I hope you can own that. He didn't make you do anything. You talk a lot about him, what he says, what he does, etc etc

I don't the guy to say what attachment style he has. But what attachment style do you have?

Also, you say in your original OP that you are sadly (your sentiment) obsessed at times. Is that something that will change in a couple of months? Or intensify?

Also, what have you got to lose by being honest and asking him, 'how do you see this relationship progressing? I'd like a relationship, what do you want?' After all, cut to the chase, that is what you want. I think you're wanting to wait a couple of months to see if he'll change his mind.
Keep the focus on you, and not on him. What do you want? Are you worried that if you ask the question above you'll either scare him off or not get the answer you'd like.

[TheNaze73]

Men do tend to know quickly if they think someone is worth pursuing long term. Every he is saying, spells out fuck buddy at the most.

[TrippyMcTrapFace]

you're . Can't even blame auto-correct for that one.

[TrippyMcTrapFace]

X post yet again. If your counsellor thinks it's good and healthy then why are you asking a bunch of randoms here for opinions?
And disagree with the counsellor about him having a secure attachment style. It's ok to go slow at first, to pace things, be open to the relationship developing and really get to know one another. But that's not what's been happening here.

I don't agree with someone from whom your getting professional advice so it's time I stopped posting here. Good luck!