Need a handhold... I have The Fear

[ViolettaValery]

Am I doing the right thing?

I'm seeing an ex on Thursday, someone who hurt me quite a lot and I ended up quite traumatised, so I dumped him and went NC for four months, and got some therapy. He got back in touch, and I wanted to "normalise" some of the stuff that had happened and work through it, so I welcomed talking to him. He is in some serious therapy of his own for the first time in his life, is aghast at his behaviour and is very sorry, is in love with me, wants it to work, etc. We've actually never communicated like this before, he seems to have grown up in some sense. I genuinely am not sure what I want (he knows this and is not pushing). Thursday is more of a proto-date than a date. There is some difficult stuff (gas lighting, silent treatment, some behaviour that was not cheating but cheaty IYSWIM, flirting, shady behaviour generally), we are discussing it slowly, some of it has been really helpful, some of it I still think, how would I ever get past that? How would I know it wouldn't happen again?

Thing is, it all seemed just positive and life-affirming and like I was in control, and was just seeing how it played out. I don't want to be in this position of having a tragic ex I never speak to. This person meant a lot to me and I appreciate what he has done, of his own volition, to sort himself out, and I'm not committing myself to anything other than dinner. However this ends, if we could both come out of it better, happier people, together or apart, that would be great and I think that's what I'm aiming for really.

I was quite looking forward to Thursday until I spoke over the weekend and today to friends and family who had supported me through the dark period, and they have basically made me afraid again (I have massive anxiety anyway). And now I'm feeling like I can't handle myself, I'm back in the scared place I was in before, and trying to sort out what is genuine well-founded caution and what is just anxiety is messing me up.

My gut feeling is that I have been curiously disempowered by the very people who helped me, and who I owe so much to, and there's something off about that. At the same time, I'm not sanguine about this man, and I know there's no way at this point to know whether the change is lasting or not. I'm taking nothing as read, but I never did, and I wasn't anxious or scared about it before those conversations. Should I talk to him? Cancel? Talk to them and try to sound like less of a victim this time?

Sorry, this is long for a small problem. Thanks for reading.

[ViolettaValery]

Myusername yes, I think so! Grieving, that's it. I still don't know where it will end, but the point is, if it ever feels thoroughly good, I will know about it won't I? Who knows, if he really is changing, he's not going to stop changing just because I need more time.

[ViolettaValery]

Namechange am definitely not excusing or justifying it! I've read everything on the internet, I know what he did. This has been a bit of a bible over the last 3 months (though I'm not sure he's a narcissist really in any clinical sense, he has too much self-awareness; just very damaged, which is the point of the article really): blog.melanietoniaevans.com/is-he-or-she-really-a-narcissist-laying-boundaries-and-accountability/

[Wellmeetontheledge]

As a side note, you mention you are building your confidence and self-esteem which is fab and I was just wondering how you are doing it? I have none arm and would like to know how other people build theirs. Sorry to derail, please don't feel you have to answer.

[janaus]

Maybe he just wants your 'forgiveness' for the terrible things he has done. Now that he has got his head together.

[ViolettaValery]

Wellmeetontheledge I'm not sure really (sorry, this is not helpful!) I think in a way the reasons I got into this relationship and stuck with it for so long were almost the opposite. I am generally very confident, strong, open-minded and flexible (and was cockstruck) and that's a bit of a killer combination for being on the receiving end of abuse, just as much as the more common "low self-esteem". I don't have a pattern of abusive relationships, I've been involved with one guy before who was much worse than this when I was 18 and that's it. I also attract and am attracted to stable people, so it's not always as simple as low self-esteem=abusive relationships.

But having therapy did help me MASSIVELY. There's probably no substitute for it. Just the act of being encouraged to sit there, being ok with my feelings, and not feeling obliged to limit them or conceal them for other people. Is that low self-esteem? I'm not sure, I think "people-pleasing" is a better term. Women sadly are disproportionately culturally trained to do it.

[Offred]

Ah violetta! Returning the handhold!

I think you have done the right thing in cancelling.

If you unpick it a bit you have been apart for 7 months. This is not enough time for you to heal and not enough time for him to change. He may be trying, I don't know.

If you still love him it is not a good time to go back either.

Maybe if he changed and you had gotten over him and then you tried again possibly but even then there would be temptations to fall into old patterns.

I agree with what others said that the negative feelings you felt when you spoke to family and friends were actually you facing the reality of what he did to you which you had been subconsciously avoiding while you were caught up with him. This means you are still vulnerable to him and if he isn't changed, you are very much at risk.

[Shayelle]

Stay away. Block. Move on.

[FluffyFluffster]

My ex used to do this (although he lied about the therapy). He had all the right words admitted to everything how awful he was etc etc... the problem was though, it was all words and words didn't mean anything to him. He'd lie to anyone if he thought it would get him what he wanted.

I understand the need for closure, I was the same but it wasn't actually what I needed. It took a while but the last time I bumped into him, he blanked me and I genuinely didn't care. It took a long time for the anger to go away, he genuinely turned me into a different person and tbh, I'm still not sure if I like that person. Now there is just a big gap of ambivalence towards him. Turns out all I needed was a distraction and some time.

[ViolettaValery]

Offred thank you! Feeling rather flat today. I think you're bang on really, it's all very positive-seeming but it really is all just words at this stage, I can't really know that he's changed (I don't know what it would look like, it just doesn't look like this) and on that basis, I would still be liable to be hurt, even if I go into it thinking "I don't know what I want to happen" there is always that risk.

He's not lying about the therapist, I've seen emails from her. But of course, I also don't know exactly what he's saying to her and it's none of my business anyway. My gut instinct is he isn't consciously lying about any of it, but that doesn't mean he can't still be whitewashing things to himself/the therapist/whoever else. And there's nothing I can do about that. It'll either become obvious and all feel very safe or it won't.

[skilledintheartofnothing]

This may not be that helpful, i find i have to break things down simply (otherwise the in's and out's and second guessing drive me batty)

Imagine you were bit by a dog.
A year later you bump into the same dog and are told that it has been to training classes and hasn't bit anyone since, would you trust the dog or always be on your guard/wary of it?

If its the latter, then stay away. No happy relationship ever happens if you constantly have in the back of your mind a little voice telling you it's not quite safe or trustworthy and looking for tell tell signs.

[breezybeach]

Ok

Every situation is different
Not saying this could or pull be the case

But

I had a relationship Where I got incredibly messed around .. Much of it down to circumstances at the time but also his commitment phobia . I ended up very upset and hurt
It took over my life , I lost my self esteem etc etc
My family and freinds dispared of me

Eventually he dumped me , I fell apart . Then started to get better . Much better . Then really strong . Still sad but .. Living my life , dating , got super fit , focused on my career etc

3 months later he begged me back
My house looked like Kew Gardens he sent so many flowers
He too had had therapy . He sounded like a different man
Spoke to my family , apologised
Swore he had changed .. Couldn't live without me etc

So I went back . At first he was fully committed . Was completely different . I was so happy . He was so amazing . Then boom . I had a huge crisis in my life And really needed his support
And all the old behaviour returned and he ran for the hills

It was just awful
So much worse the second time around
I ended up extremely anxious and depressed . On anti depressants . Drinking in the daytime . It was a horrible time .

I think everybody knows somebody with a story like mine
It doesn't always turn out that way of course
But that is why your freinds and family are being so protective .

If you proceed later on please proceed with caution and guard your heart until you get actions not words

Let us know
We care how you are very much
You are very important

[birdybirdywoofwoof]

So you were actually meeting this guy who upset you and traumatised you this summer - with a view to getting back together?

No wonder your family/friends are upset.

I thought you were seeing him with some misguided idea of 'closure', a sort of 'hey, I've moved on sucker' which is stupid but not as stupid as getting back together would be.

ho hum. I hope you cancel.

[birdybirdywoofwoof]

And read it again and saw you had!

Doh- sorry!

Well done you- don't look back.

[ViolettaValery]

Birdy I don't know what I wanted, as such. But I was definitely putting myself in a situation where an escalation would be all but inevitable (was I going to meet him, knowing how mutually obsessed we were/are, and be able to walk away and say "Nah, not for me"? Nope!) I think Offred is totally right that I was confronting the still-difficult things properly by talking to other people and that pushed me off-balance, it didn't feel right.

Breezy what a lovely post! Very thought-provoking... I think it kind of chimes with my gut feeling about this man. FWIW I suspect you didn't imagine the reform, and nor did he, and he genuinely thought he meant it, but maybe some damage (my ex for example has terrible parents - they scared the willies out of me as a 30something adult!) is too deep, and old patterns will reassert themselves under stress. That's not evil, it's just very sad, and one mustn't be on the receiving end. I think sometimes the MN relationships board for all its great advice is sometimes a bit inclined to the "he is the soul of evil" interpretation, and I KNOW that's not true of him so it puts me off. But non-evil people can still be dangerous.

Thanks all. I feel much - well, not happier, but calmer tonight, which is a good sign

[Offred]

I'm glad you are feeling less shitty!

I think it's that thing about the difference between the person and the behaviour. If you have a certain personality type like mine feeling that someone is not a bad guy, seeing all that grey between the black and white, blinds you to the actual reality of the behaviour.

It is very silly, and whilst you can kid yourself that you are being all open minded by looking at the whole person you sacrifice yourself far too easily. I think I have come to see that there is a huge, huge benefit from looking at relationships in MN black and white terms TBH. It will always remain true that people are more than their behaviour but in a relationship it is their behaviour that matters a million times more than anything else. The kind of person they are matters more for them than for you!

Breezy your post was lovely BTW!

[ViolettaValery]

Ha, believe me I DID go through an MN-style phase of believing this man was soul of evil! It's a useful phase, it put some distance there for me, and it's what woke me up to the stuff that still worries me even after a fair bit of talking. And then you realise it's not realistic, it doesn't fit with all the facts and it's not even very nice - who wants to be powered by hate? It's hard to settle down to a realistic-but-safe interpretation. Hope you are doing ok too

[Offred]

Yeah, I'm fine actually. I haven't seen him or spoken to him since he dropped me off on Monday morning at home. In fact I have given him very little thought which has been pleasant!

I've had a great couple of days with the children with all the Halloween fun. My littlest (younger by 20mins twin) lost her first tooth today so there has been much screaming and sobbing followed by loads of excitement and letters to the tooth fairy!

Good distraction...

I think you are entitled to hate someone who treats you like crap TBF. You can even hate them whilst recognising that you have only seen them in one way and at one time in their lives. You can hate them and know that deep down they are a good person in other ways because what they did to you means they deserve your hate.

You just need to have boundaries to your hate as well as your love!