Help!emotional abuse or normal rowing? Feel like I'm going crazy..

[Jessbird1]

I have started to notice a pattern to our rows, and I think my DH might be emotionally abusive when it happens. I need help to 'decode' what is going on. This is a typical example of what happens.

We were in the lounge, I was on my phone researching built in wardrobes and was absorbed ( I was on Pinterest!). He said he was taking DS upstairs to play, the tv was on CBeebies, I wasn't watching it. Half an hour later he came back down and the tv was still on CBeebies (I hadn't noticed as I was absorbed in my task). He flipped out at me for not turning it off ( I am suspicious he did it on purpose to catch me out when he came back down so he could have a go at me). He says I am lazy and a liar and that he won't believe me because he 'knows me' and that I am stubborn and am not telling the truth. I feel that the responsibility for the tv was with the person who was watching it ( or the person watching DS who was watching it) so don't feel it was up to me to turn it off. I try to explain I cannot 'lie' to resolve the row and he shouldn't expect me to. Admittedly I do get defensive as I feel my character is being attacked and I feel he is being unfair. I try to make him believe me and see that it's not worth making a huge row over in front of DS. He will not stop going and going on at me being rude, calling me names, discounting everything I say, twisting and turning it to make it my fault and force me to 'apologise'. Even though he comes at me with the issue, and essentially causes the row by having a go at me, it is always me that has caused it because I should have just 'apologised' and 'admitted I was in the wrong'. I feel very strongly that I won't apologise for something I haven't done or that I don't feel warrants an apology. I am always quick to apologise if I am wrong though. He keeps going and going until I can no longer contain myself and flip out in a rage of the injustice and his rudeness to me (he says awful things which I can' never remember). He then uses this 'flip out' against me saying things like 'look at you you're a mess' 'you can't control yourself' 'I'm not the one shouting'. of course he is rude and hurtful and awful to me but he manages to stay calm the whole time he is doing it which then makes me out even more to be the 'bad guy'.

Eventually I will apologise to make it stop thinking if I hold my hands up to 'my part' ( which I still don't believe and therefore feel uncomfortable with apologising) he might see he is at fault and apologise for being the one who caused the row and hurt me so much in the process. No such chance. He will not accept any responsibility, will not apologise, cannot see his part (he has caused me a great deal of mental anguish by now and I have been crying and sobbing pushed to my limits but he is incapable of saying sorry, feeling guilt or reaching out to comfort me for causing me to feel this way).

He then shuts down the row, saying we will discuss it later. When I try to talk about it later he latches on to the fact I lost control and shouted, and in so doing makes himself out to be the victim, instead of focusing on the real issue which I feel is his inability to take responsibility or apologise for his part in the row. The argument can never be resolved as I am left reeling from what has happened, questioning myself, head fucked and emotionally battered, because I have to apologise but he won't. These rows only ever happen when he has started it and seem to be over trivial things, like the tv being left on, the kitchen door being left open, or me not realising that DS hasn't had breakfast yet (when DH usually does it and it's only 8.15am and therefore not a disaster that it's not been done yet).

It's worth mentioning two things. I have a fragile sense of self after an emotionally and physically abusive relationship when I was younger which may or may not be contributing to the way I react. DH had an extremely abusive childhood and ended up cutting off his Dad and half his family. I don't know all of the details but from what I have heard they were awful emotionally and physically abusive people. 90% of the time DH is loving and rational and a brilliant Dad, and I really do want to get to the bottom of it for all of our sakes. Any help in shedding light on this and ways to move forward would be helpful..

[huskylover]

It sounds like EA, but whether or not you apply that label, the relationship sounds truly awful. In your shoes, I would walk away, tbh.

[DoreenLethal]

90% of the time DH is loving and rational and a brilliant Dad,
Taking your estimation to its ultimate conclusion, this means that every 9 minutes he is abusing you for one minute. If someone else did that every 9 minutes, who you were not married to, would you just let them do it?

HE left the tv on, not you.

I would like DH to get some help and understand for himself what he is doing and why it happens.

That is very sweet. Completely and utterly pointless but very sweet. Good that you are thinking of him, when he is probably thinking up new names to call you.

[Marchate]

You can't 'help' him, sadly. Waste of effort. Concentrate on helping yourself & your child

[BertieBotts]

I barely even got through the OP.

Having to put that much ENERGY and EFFORT into something as small as somebody leaving the TV on is a huge red flag for emotional abuse. Because it just isn't that big of a deal in normal relationships, and it's what makes it so hard to talk about - because people go "WTF? Just turn it off. What a load of drama!" or they switch off when you're talking about it because the backstory is so long and involved.

It's hard work. When everything small becomes big like that it's just like running through treacle trying to live normal life.

I totally understand why you want to seek help for him - but this will ultimately be pointless. He isn't bothered, disturbed, upset or worried by his own behaviour. So it doesn't matter if he understands it better. In fact, that's only likely to make him worse because he will be able to be more subtle, because it will contribute to the "I'm so special and damaged and "different"" mindset that some EA men (and he sounds like he's in this group) fall into. Understanding his behaviour isn't going to motivate him to change, you telling him you don't like something isn't going to motivate him to change. He has to want that for himself.

I suggest that you have a read of this thread. It's an extract from the book "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft. You might find it surprising.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2268977-The-Abuser-Profiles

[Duckdeamon]

He didn't show affection? Another red flag.

You say he might be willing and able to change his behaviour to avoid distressing the DC: so you're assuming (rightly, given his behaviour) that he isn't willing to do so for you, his partner, or even acknowledge he's treating you badly. That's sad. Unless he treats others like this he is choosing to treat you like this, and doesn't apologise.

Not much hope for him changing.

[8angle]

I am sorry Jess, as everyone else has said he is abusive. this is not even close to a normal loving relationship, and your view that he is great 90% of the time just highlights how much abuse you are subconsciously willing to put up with.

if you don't get out of this in 30 years time someone else may well be posting about your DS saying: DH had an extremely abusive childhood and ended up cutting off his Dad and half his family.

You can't even have a conversation with him about the TV being left on for 30 mins, i think counselling will get you no where, sorry

[rememberthetime]

I am one of the few people here whose ea husband has actually gotten therapy. It worked to a certain extent. He is now calm and understands his behaviour. He no longer shouts or manipulates and he works hard to communicate in a fair way. I also had therapy separately which took two years to become less fearful.
All I can say is that your husband will not change unless he wants to. Change yourself first and he might want to catch up. This was what happened with me. But be prepared that the result may be that you realise the love had gone s long time ago. That is where I am right now. And he pops back to ea land every now and then just to test me. ..

[Twinklestein]

Bear in mind OP that abuser programmes only have a 15% success rate.

You feel optimistic that he will change because he loves his son. He might, but it's much more likely that he won't. Self-change is very, very hard, it requires humility and commitment over a very long period of time.

[Hissy]

Love, your son will grow up to copy him and abuse you...

Get this horrid man away from you both Asap.

I used to live like this and there is nothing you can do but get away or get rid of them. Nothing. Trust me. I spent 10 years trying. It ends up destroying more of us than changing a single second of their revolting behaviour.

I left the telly on for my sons toy monkey to watch a crucial footy match the other week, while son and I went to the stadium.

Life really IS that free when you don't have Wankers in it!

My son is happy, healthy and strong. He doesn't base his worth on what his crap dad thinks.

I'm not raising an abuser, im raising a real man.

[Jessbird1]

Thank you every one. It really is eye opening. There are other things that keep popping into my mind as I think about it. Things like that he will never ever compliment me, he likes to keep me feeling ever so slightly insecure. Even one night when his mate was telling him he was a lucky lucky man going on and on in front of me about how good I was looking, my DH never even agreed or said anything. Then there are the episodes of passive aggression, I used to ask him to pass DS over when he needed to be breast fed, he would deliberately stall, completely ignore what I had said as if he didn't hear me (all the while DS crying for milk) and do everything else under the sun to put off having to pass me the baby ( I cottoned on and stopped losing my rag soon enough and it stopped but he still does it with other things). There is the fact his 'pet names' for me are all negative things like 'maggot' and 'slug'. Yes the fact he was unable to show his love and never complimented me or let me feel 'safe' in the relationship were huge signs which of course I stupidly ignored. I even broke up with him because I couldn't take the constantly feeling unsecure. I found the book 'love languages' and it helped him to see what I needed and he did actually make efforts to change. he has already changed a lot, he can now actually tell me he loves me, his mum tells me constant how much he has changed for the better and to be honest this 'ugly' side really doesn't come out that often. On reflection it's much less than 10% it just seems to come up more when we go through a bad patch.

Rememberthetime what therapy exactly did you and your DH have? I think it is essential that we both get some help even if in the long run its not going to keep us together.

[BertieBotts]

:( Those pet names are horrible.

It's nice that he has improved with the love languages but there are other underlying problems still, aren't there? It's actually dangerous to have therapy with an abuser together so I wouldn't suggest that. Separate counselling is better if you must do something, but even that is questionable - unless he enrols specifically in a program designed for abusive men. The problem with normal counselling or couple's counselling is that the assumption is you're both playing a part in the problems within the relationship and they will work from that basis but - although I'm sure you're not perfect as nobody is - all of the things you've mentioned are really out of proportion from his side and the issues are stemming from his issues. If it was a communication issue, then counselling might be helpful, but that is not the problem that you have.

[Jan45]

Why waste your life on a human who takes no responsibility for his actions, he is damaging your child with his aggressive outbursts, he knows exactly what he is doing and doesn't give a stuff what you think or how it is affecting your child, disgusting, you don't need a counsellor to tell him that fgs.

You are in denial OP, he won't change, what a life of misery ahead for you and your child when you could have a happy environment to raise your child. We've all had childhood issues, we don't all re-inact them when adults, he's using you as his emotional punch bag and keeps the control by wearing you down - none of it is normal or healthy, I think once you get out of it you will see that.

[Jan45]

Yeah, and the pet names - vile, vile, vile...........no idea why you are still there.

[Twinklestein]

On reflection it's much less than 10% it just seems to come up more when we go through a bad patch

From what you've said it's a lot more than 10%. It's drip drip drip 24/7.

[stinkysnowbear]

I don't get what his problem was? Leaving the tv on? People care about that?

[DoreenLethal]

On reflection it's much less than 10% it just seems to come up more when we go through a bad patch.

It should be zero percent. 1% is bad enough.
I wonder who creates these 'bad patches'.

The man is vile. He isn't vile all the time because otherwise he would never be able to reel you back in.

[Duckdeamon]

The preventing you from breastfeeding DS thing sounds like actual physical abuse towards you and your tiny DS.

Strange how abusive men's mothers v often tell their son's partners how good she is for them. I doubt the people who care about YOU would say the same about him, if they were being honest.

[Morasssassafras]

Start writing it down op. I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised by how often this is happening and the overall effect on your wellbeing.

The only person you can save is yourself. He has to want to change before he will, and I agree with a pp that he needs a specific abuser course rather than just counselling. Good luck in having him admit he is abusive and sign up to a course.

[PreemptiveSalvageEngineer]

My ex was nowhere near as abusive as his father.

His father beat and raped his wife (Ex's mum). ExH never raised a hand to me, but called me nasty names, gaslit, accused, blew up, never apologised, etc...

His father forced her to get a crap-paying piecework job, putting her ExH to an unsafe and abusive childminder, he "allowed" her to do home sewing instead, but said she must work twice as hard, since it paid less. My ex didn't do that, but was financially abusive in loads of other ways.

I could go on, but you get the picture. I thank the gods on a daily basis that I saw him for what he was (and left him) before I had children with him, and feel badly for his current wife.

ExH told me all these things about his own childhood, and swore he'd never be like that. I suppose he still thinks he's not.

[PreemptiveSalvageEngineer]

... her child, (ExH) into illegal childcare.

Sorry if I was unclear.

[rememberthetime]

The therapy we did was transactional analysis or TA. But we did it separately. C he also did EMDR to deal with specific incidences in his childhood that triggered strong emotions and led to rages. It is essential that he wants to do this ad he needs to see it through. It is hard work and my oh out everything into it and attended every week for months. He still goes for top ups.
Don't rely on him doing this. But do it yourself. My therapy taught me why I put up with his bad behaviour and why I chose a man like him. It also helped me recognise the abuse and name it. I also realised I dint have to accept it. Since I started therapy two years ago I have gotten my drivers license and my own bank account. I now earn twice what I was...I am self employed and found the anxiety stopped me from making the most of opportunities.
Overall I have worked on myself while he worked on himself. Note we need to reestablish our relationship. That's the hard bit. I need to learn to love him again and I am not sure I can.
Amongst all this the kids have been damaged with dd suffering from anxieties. But they are improving as he and I do.
This is a long hard Road that can only be positive if you are both totally invested in the process. If not then you could be living a life on your own in months rather than going it might work out in years time. Sometimes I wish I had given up sooner abd found something better especially for the kids.

[RhombusRiley]

I'm another whose DP went to therapy. He's been before for depression, but only recently has started going again with the aim of understanding why he behaves badly towards me.

I don't agree that people/abusers can't change. He has changed a huge amount, from essentially being massively selfish, lazy and defensive to doing far, far, FAR more housework and childcare than he used to, trying really hard to do things without being asked, and listen to things I say. He has changed - the trouble is his default is still basically hugely self-absorbed and disrespectful. I think it's essentially really hard for him not to see the world as revolving around him and his needs - even if that's his need to be helpful, do the right thing and be liked. I don't think he means to be a wanker, I genuinely don't. He is just deeply insecure and will do and say anything, including lying and gaslighting, to prove he's in the right – when he gets like that, my feelings just don't matter.

remember I totally agree, the love has gone - however nice a person can be when they want to be, however much you fell in love with them (and I did), going through disrespectful, dishonest and unfair treatment over and over and over again chips away at how you feel about them. I have ended it, because I just can't reconcile that treatment - which still happens even though he's "really trying" - with someone who is supposed to love me and who I am supposed to love. I don't want to be with someone who has to bust a gut "really trying" to show me basic respect.

It's so interesting what you say about your career too remember - same here. In just the last few months since I came to this decision my income has rocketed. It's so weird how just the unhappiness of knowing it's all wrong, can affect you on every level and pull you down.

[mum2mum99]

I will try to follow the advice that was mentioned regarding not rising to it or getting drawn into an argument. I have managed to take this approach before but it's very hard when you are tired and struggling already
So basically you will back off and he will ultimately get his own way all the time. I did that for years and it completely destroyed my self confidence.
Your voice deserves to be heard Jess.

[RhombusRiley]

It depends what the argument is about though. Yes your voice needs to be heard when you have a point to make/something to say, but you don't need to get sucked into a pointless argument about something trivial where he's just arguing for the sake of it. Your voice is heard if you say "I'm not arguing about this". It is much better and more powerful than when he has pushed you into anger and shouting and you have "lost control".