What's this called and how can I deal with it?

[whatdoIget]

A family member has an infuriating way of discouraging any criticism. For example if someone asks this person to not say something to one of the children because it's likely to be quite damaging and may affect their confidence, the person will say something like "oh yes, that's what I always do, I always say things wrong". It maybe sounds quite innocuous, but it does grate a bit after 30 odd years of hearing it and it actually works well as a way of making sure they can say what they want with impunity.
I just feel like I would like thjngs to change and if anyone has any suggestions of how to respond, if possible without starting ww3, I would be so grateful.

[Triliteral]

Incidentally, in my experience, any type of ongoing exchange invokes the danger of further PA behaviour, such as sulking, or the ultimate weapon the tearful stage....

[Triliteral]

I'm not sure if there is reduction of the behaviour. The person is old and the patterns well set and enabled by others.

That said, it diffuses many situations and keeps me sane. The latter is helpful. I confess I find mild amusement from the fact I am tacitly agreeing with their assessment of themselves, without it being possible for anyone to say I am being offensive.

To explain my thinking a bit more, it seems to me that the person is dragging the topic away from something important (the impact on my child) and onto themselves. In making an 'everyone' statement, e.g. 'Everyone can be stupid now and then', it removes their power to overdramatise the situation and renders it less personal. You can then re-iterate what is important.

Your example above seems to me to be very typical. My passive aggressive would rarely challenge an adult that way, but seems to see children as lesser beings who should be corrected. It also demonstrates a certain closed-mindedness. There is no right or wrong way to take a portrait, but a child is fair game for criticism. My person has fairly black and white ideas about the right way to do certain things, which can cause conflict... And indeed sometimes just seems to like being contrary, perhaps to stimulate the 'I'm so awful,' exchange.

I tried to ensure my children were not left too much with the person and tried to ensure I was there to diffuse such situations. It struck me, with your example, that I might well have remonstrated directly, with the defence I outlined above, 'Actually I disagree. I love posed shots and many professional photographers use them.' This is not then, a criticism of the person's behaviour, just a difference of opinion.

I think passive-aggressive behaviour requires very steady assertiveness on your part. It takes a lot of practice, but can, to an extent, be learned.

[Aspergallus]

I'd do "this isn't about you", calm and non confrontational

You: please don't say that, it's unhelpful
Martyr: oh no, i can't do anything right
You: this isn't about you. That can be a harmful/unhelpful thing to say.
Martyr: i always get it wrong!
You: this isn't about you, i'm focussing on what's best for....

In fact, "this isn't about you" without explanation can be repeated over and over till they stop. It has the advantage of pointing out, without confrontation, that their behaviour is actually quite selfish.

If you want to be helpful, when they finally stop you could suggest they find someone to talk about that since your focus of course, is on your child.

[Dragonsdaughter]

'oh dear perhaps some councelling to deal with your issues ?'

[whatdoIget]

Thanks OnceAMeer. It's definitely not a one-off and I can recognise it as having affected my own confidence over the years. Also it's just joy-sucking and discouraging. I don't think it is on purpose. I think it's meant to be helpful, but of course I may be wrong.

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

As a one off it sounds like nothing, whatdoIget.

But if it's happened so often that you think the children are getting discouraged, then something does need saying. It's the -pattern-, not any individual instance.

I'd call them on it, smiling when they say 'oh i always do things wrong' and politely agreeing 'ah, well this at least is something that can be done differently'. They'll bloody hate it but martyrs like this are actually fucking agressive and unworkable-with. They might start the 'oh but I'm not allowed to say this, that or the other' thing which is also irritating, but the children will figure that out for themselves.

Call the person on this martyr thing, as long as it's not a one-off. Most one-offs don't matter.

[whatdoIget]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions, I really appreciate them.
I'm going to give an example and I think it's probably going to be a bit of an anti-climax because I don't think it'll sound as bad as it is iyswim? But these kinds of comments tend to accumulate I think?
The child wanted to take a photo of the person. The child asked them to look at the camera. The person started saying "actually that's not a very good way to take pictures of people. Some of the best photos you see are when people are just getting on with whatever they're doing and don't even know the picture is being taken"
Then everyone else says "ffs, the child just wants to take a picture of you, child is not David Bailey, child is junior age" etc etc, then the person responds in the manner described in the op.
Does that sound like nothing or something?

[pocketsaviour]

You can either reply "Yes, that's because you're a massive awful cunt"
or
you can limit your children's exposure to such a harmful influence.

Because not only is this person deliberately saying hurtful things to your child (don't ever believe it's an accident BTW!) but they are also providing a terrible example of how to then deal with the issue, by playing the martyr.

Do you want your DC to learn this?

My mum is very much like this. I cut off contact with her last year and it's been the most peaceful, stress-free 11 months of my life. Not to mention for my DS.

[Isetan]

Smile and nod in agreement if they try and respond with another PA statement. They will soon realise that you aren't an accommodating audience to their PA bullshit and will focus their attention on a more receptive audience.

[Isetan]

'Your words not mine' works for me, passive aggressive's hate it when you reflect their words back at them.

[DoreenLethal]

oh yes, that's what I always do, I always say things wrong

Well, perhaps you should think before you speak in future then?

'Oh that's really upsetting'

'Well, in my case it was meant to be - why is it ok for you to upset others but not for others to upset you? Perhaps you need to have a think about it.'

[Joysmum]

"I can't do anything right"

This isn't about you, it's about the kids and you've not yet apologised for hurting them.

[orangetomatoes]

I don't have any advice just empathy. I know someone like this, they put themselves down whenever you say anything that might be seen as a negative comment about them. I get lots of 'well that's just me, I'm selfish / inconsiderate / untrustworthy etc etc'. I've never found the right way to deal with it and find it incredibly frustrating.

[ravenmum]

Is it usually about the confidence-sapping things she says to the children? If so, maybe have a discussion (not during a scene) about her own parents' childraising methods and how they might have affected her. Point out that if she grew up being told that kind of thing, it will feel normal to her, but that is part of the damaging effect it has had on her.

[Italiangreyhound]

Treat this person as you might a small child who is a bit unable to follow...

EG "yes that's right I'm a rubbish person who says stupid things. I'm always getting told off"

You: When did I say that Auntie Betty/cousin Luke/Father in law Terence... I said we don't call kids scabby little nit wits because it is upsetting for them and knocks their confidence, I am sure you can say loads of encouraging things about Leonora’s/Thomas's/Jessie’s appearance/ home work/new Futsie 500 company!

Try not to get stressed, just say what you mean and mean what you say, say it with a smile and if they totally rail road over you with self depreciating comments you need to just say.

"I think I am being quite easy to understand here, those types of comments aren't helpful, I am not saying anything nasty about you, just that we don't say things like that in front of the kids....."

You could try a straight face to face, it's difficult when you blah blah blah, but my guess is this might be seen as an attack so better to keep it light hearted and always relevant to the point.

Although I love Aussiebean's ' well if you are always saying things like that, maybe you should look into some councilling so you learn how not to do it' I’d be tempted to tone it down and just say
...

"I think we all have to just think a bit more about what we say in front of kids these days, they are very aware of what adults say and it's our job to be positive and encouraging with them."

(For the record I think that is true! My uncle and dad used to talk about things that were not appropriate, scary stories, watch things n TV not really suitable for kids, and my mum rarely seemed to notice. Me and my sister were much more vigilant about kids not watching inappropriate stuff! Also a kids we were often out playing, in the garden etc etc,

I think nowadays kids are maybe around adults more, my kids stay up later than I ever did and they are often listening in , in a way I feel my sister and I never did. I just feel hat nowadays too we are more aware, how hurtful comments, inappropriate language etc can affect children. Fundamentally, society hasn’t changed but we do now afford ids more respect than we did when I was one, IMHO!)

Can you give us an example of what they say!!??

[YouthHostellingWithChrisEubank]

This is my DM. Her catchphrase is "I can't do anything right!" It is deeply, deeply annoying and frustrating, especially as she will walk away as she says it so she has the last word.

Some good suggestions here, thanks.

[Aussiebean]

You could always say

' well if you are always saying things like that, maybe you should look into some councilling so you learn how not to do it'

[whatdoIget]

What's wrong with you then? That's a massive can of worms that I don't really want to open!! And I'm really reluctant to be quite as confrontational as that tbh. I just want it to stop but hopefully without me being involved in a massive argument. I've obviously been well trained

[alliheararetantrums]

Potential responses:

"What's wrong with you then, that you keep doing this? And why do you do it when you know it causes suffering?"

"you must not do x again because it causes suffering to Y. You know now what not to do, so if you do it again, it will be perceived as done out of spite."

[whatdoIget]

Thanks springydaffs. I'm laughing a bit at the thought of shutting them down like that after all these years.

[springydaffs]

Stick to the topic eg:
You: please dont say damaging things like that to dc
Her: oh I always get things wrong
You: OK. Saying things like that to a child is damaging
She: people are always telling me off/I always get things wrong
You: Alright. Comments like that are damaging to a child and i'd like you to stop.
She: poor me I can never get anything right
You: right/OK/hmm - pause - so please don't say things like that again

Works a treat with my parents. They go a bit nuts, mind, bcs their manipulations aren't working - but just keep plowing on, saying the same thing in a variety of ways a few times, then end the 'discussion' - by changing the subject as you walk away.

Etc. Don't address the content of what they're saying, even obliquely. Don't get upset/enraged/reacte.

[whatdoIget]

Have you noticed whether that kind of response has reduced the behaviour at all?

[whatdoIget]

Thanks Triliteral, that sounds like the sort of response I'm looking for. It acknowledges that I've heard what they've said, but that I'm not going to be manipulated by it, and also reiterates the original point! Brilliant

[Triliteral]

I have someone like this in my life. Of course, the natural response (and I believe the response the person is looking for) is for you to disagree because what they want to hear is, "Oh, of course you don't."

Nowadays, I Just agree with them and reiterate what I wanted to say, but try to do it in a way that isn't insulting. In response to the comment in the OP, I would probably say, "Well everyone gets things wrong from time to time, but I really would prefer if you didn't say that to little Freddy again." My tone would remain bright and breezy throughout.

[whatdoIget]

I don't think I'm brave enough Imperial. And it would just provoke more of the same I think?