What if...

[tuppenneth]

..somebody had it in them to change positively, to work harder on a relationship , to open up more , share their feelings better and to make their partner who had previously felt neglected or unloved , feel cherished and wanted again , but never got the chance because of the one sided advice picked up from some of the posters on here?

What if someone had genuine depression and suicidal thoughts as the result of a relationship breakdown , but the ex partner completely ignored the warning signs and pleas for help because the same section of posters that show up on all of the threads of a similar nature , warned the poster that it was 100% just another example of the emotional abuse script? What if the thoughts / pleas / god forbid, actions , turned out to be bona fide?

I get the feeling that far too many posters are a little trigger happy for one reason or another. Why does the stock answer more often than not , have to be to run away?

I can predict some of the suspicious responses that I'll probably get to this before i've even finished typing.

[dreamingofblueskies]

OP, you are assuming that us poor women don't have a brain of our own and need some kind of pack mentality in order to make a decision.

I posted about my husband's emotional affair back in August, I got a lot of responses, all helpful in different ways. It helped me to see both sides, and while the LTB messages outweighed the other side I am still with him, still trying to make it work.

Because I made up my own mind. And I am now getting support on a 'marriage recovery' thread. Everyone on this forum has been helpful to me in one way or another, helping me see the whole picture.

If you did indeed get left by a woman who posted on here it is not the people who commented's (is commented's right, it seems wrong?!) fault, it's yours.

[ninetynineonehundred]

So op what you are effectively saying is that this poor brainless woman who couldn't think for herself shouldn't have listened to the vipers who have a vested interest in splitting you up.
Presumably because they are all so bitter from their own fucked up relationships that they are unable to countenance anyone having a good relationship because it highlights their own failings.

What this poor useless woman should do instead is listen to you promising to change again?

And at no point make up their own mind.

Good point. Why didn't I see that originally.
On behalf of the whole of mn I apologise for swaying your useless wife when that was your job.

[cailindana]

But surely you can see that that's not what you're talking about at all tuppeneth? You're talking about one partner being very shit and the other partner having to put up with it and find ways to make them change, while at the same time not being able to leave due to threats of suicide. That's not a relationship that's one person manipulating and controlling another.

[FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse]

Tupp, you're not even trying anymore :o

Mix, I totally agree with Annie, you only said that because of the mass PM that is sent out to everyone encouraging you to say it. Admit it! None of you have your own opinions!

Please admit it! Please?!

Otherwise someone might have to accept that to make people think you're nice you have to behave nicely, not shout down anyone who points out that your behaviour wasn't nice.

[tuppenneth]

"In actual fact relationships should be:
Get together with someone lovely - have a lovely time - have a bit of a hard time and realise that you both need to work on some things - work through and it and get closer - support each other - have a lovely time - develop more respect and love for each other - support each other - have a shit time but be better now at getting through it - have a bad time where you're both a bit rubbish - perhaps question things - talk it through - start to see the light again - reach an understanding - forgive each other and let things go - fall back in love again - have a lovely time and so on. Relationships are optional things that should enhance your life. They are not trips to purgatory or exercises in punishment."

See , I agree with all of that cailindana. I just get the impression from reading lots of the threads on here that if someone was to come on and post at the "have a bit of a hard time and realise you both need to work on some things" stage , the predators on here would get the one side of the argument, no matter how trivial, and soon follows the chorus of LTB!!!! By the time the "have a shit time" and definitely by the "both be a bit rubbish" stage , the one side of the story is shared and the chances of "develop more respect and love for each other - support each other - reach an understanding - forgive each other and let things go - fall back in love again - have a lovely time and so on " stages are completely trampled underfoot amidst cries of abuse and LTB NOW!!! - I accept all cases are different

Your further posts such as

"Men must think women are some sort of superhuman beings to be able to put up with constant mistreatment while at the same time changing a person who "has it in them" to change but won't. Men get to just behave as they please, but women must be the perfect partner, keep the relationship going and change her man. Tall order. I wonder why women have to do that? What is it about them that makes them the ones who have to hold everything together while the men destroy everything?"

..are just lazy, and in themselves , very sexist. It works both ways. (you are not the only one who posts these "all men are"..."why is it men always..." type posts either)

[Anniegetyourgun]

Somebody told you to say that.

[mix56]

pack mentality ?
Anyone asking for an opinion can take or leave the replies of random posters. But if the posters take the time to reply, it's not to mimic the others & there is no guarantee they are correct.
its becoz its wot they think innit ?

[GoatsDoRoam]

Do people really go through life thinking "I'll find a partner and she/he will make me not shit"?

Yes, they do. It's the whole: "All that bad boy needs is the love of a good woman to put him on the straight and narrow" trope.

It is definitely still alive and kicking.

[AmyElliotDunne]

There is a MASSIVE amount of pain involved to get to that point! yes ninety. Absolutely.

We don't come on here having had a quarrel about the washing up, hear "LTB" and chuck in a perfectly good relationship. Most of the time it really is the last straw, we know what we should do, we've known for years, tried everything to put it right, but it's so hard to actually do, knowing that you will uproot your life, your DCs and everything you hoped for the future.

Who on earth would do all that because "some strangers told me to". It's reaffirmation of the answer we already know in our heart. It's support and back-up, positive stories of how others did this and they are now happy.

It's categorically not posters telling perfectly happy women to leave their poor misunderstood menfolk so that everyone else can miss out on a wonderful relationship because we're bitter we never had it!

[Waltermittythesequel]

This is just what he does, though.

He pops up every once in a while with the exact same shit over and over again.

We're all supposed to wail and gnash teeth and apologise for 'making' his long-suffering wife leave.

Nobody does.

He gets pissed off and stomps away.

And on it goes...

[ninetynineonehundred]

I haven't read anything from op that indicates their understanding of how much pain their partner was in to
A. Post on mn in the first place overcoming years of loyalty
B. Listen to people suggesting that everything they were doing to make things work wouldn't be enough because it needs the other person to be involved to
C. Give up.

There is a MASSIVE amount of pain involved to get to that point!
Someone being willing to work on themselves may just be too late.

On the other hand if all of ops assumptions are correct why would they want to be with someone so weak willed as to leave on the advice of a forum?

Either way op is describing a deeply dysfunctional situation.

[cailindana]

Men must think women are some sort of superhuman beings to be able to put up with constant mistreatment while at the same time changing a person who "has it in them" to change but won't. Men get to just behave as they please, but women must be the perfect partner, keep the relationship going and change her man. Tall order. I wonder why women have to do that? What is it about them that makes them the ones who have to hold everything together while the men destroy everything?

[FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse]

I'll drink to that Calin.

Who I am is my responsibility

[cailindana]

I also think the idea that it's anyone's job to make anyone else better is bizarre. Do people really go through life thinking "I'll find a partner and she/he will make me not shit"?

Actually, maybe they do. Doesn't Michael Buble have that awful song where he says "And I know one day that it'll all work out/And you'll make me work so we can work to work it out/...and baby your love is gonna change me"

Eh, no sorry Michael. It's actually up to you not to be shithead and to come to a relationship as a decent person willing to treat the other person with respect. It's not up to your partner to "make you work."

[cailindana]

Given how people like tuppeneth portray relationships, I wonder why they expect women to be in them at all really, they just sound like torture.

From what I can see, people who object to so-called 'LTB' advice seem to think that the process of relationships for women is:
Find a man - get treated like shit - hope he'll change - get treated more like shit - ask for advice - be told you need to take more shit and give him a chance to change - lose all confidence - end up a shell of a person. And if she does have the temerity not to want to be in that cycle of torture, then the man has the go-to tactic of threatening suicide. He threatens suicide and, hey presto! she's required to come back no matter how awful it is. She just can't get away, it's a prison. She has to put up with all sorts of behaviour all because he's depressed. He suits himself, just swings his dick around behaving like an arsehole and it's totally her duty all the time to keep the relationship going. Sounds like the shittest deal ever. Why would any woman want that?

In actual fact relationships should be:
Get together with someone lovely - have a lovely time - have a bit of a hard time and realise that you both need to work on some things - work through and it and get closer - support each other - have a lovely time - develop more respect and love for each other - support each other - have a shit time but be better now at getting through it - have a bad time where you're both a bit rubbish - perhaps question things - talk it through - start to see the light again - reach an understanding - forgive each other and let things go - fall back in love again - have a lovely time and so on. Relationships are optional things that should enhance your life. They are not trips to purgatory or exercises in punishment.

[JohnFarleysRuskin]

That is it, Goats.

With a little - if a man kills himself - it is the woman's fault - and the awful evil woman on the internet who created it all.

[FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse]

LondonZoo, also a great post.

Isn't it, goats? Women! You are here to improve us! To make us better people! We must be allowed as many chances as it takes regardless of the effect on you! For you should be grateful that I want to be with you, even though you haven't yet succeeded in improving me as a human!

[GoatsDoRoam]

So, OP is miffed that there is a place on the Internet where women tell each other: "You don't need to stick around for more of this shit, you know," and is rather of the opinion that women owe the men who are making them miserable an eternal supply of second chances, for as long as it suits the man in question, and screw the fact that woman has reached the end of her tether.

What an admirable point of view.

[cailindana]

If someone has it in them to be more change positively and work harder on a relationship, why don't they do it? Is it up to the other partner to force them to be decent?

The long and the short of it is, if you don't want to be in a relationship you have every right to walk away, no matter what the other person is like and no matter how many threats of suicide they make. Starting a relationship is not a prison sentence that you have to see out to the bitter end no matter how badly you're treated. Neither partner is required to try to make the other partner any different or better. If someone comes on here saying they've been treated badly it makes absolutely no sense to say to that person "it's up to you now to make your partner treat you better." Why would anyone give that advice? It is shit, awful advice. If someone is treating you badly, you talk to them and tell them to stop and then if they won't stop you walk away. You don't stick around and hope that they'll some day realise that they can't walk all over you and treat you like shit. You don't wait and hope that they "have it in them" to not be a shithead. That's just a pointless waste of time.

[StaceyAndTracey]

Excellent point Annie, it's both things isn't it

• Inability to see that i have messed up ( won't take responsibility for own actions )
  

• Unwillingness to accept that my partner has a mind of her own and a right to leave it she wants to ( won't accept her full humanity )
  

So the obvious solution is to sort out these vipers, give them a piece of my mind and point out the error of their ways . Rather than do some painful work on myself so I have a hope of making any future relationship work

[FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse]

Beautifully put, Annie.

[Anniegetyourgun]

In honour of this thread yesterday I re-read the tree parable in "Why Does He Do That?" It takes the offender through the steps they need to make restitution, and one of the points is that they need to accept the offended party may never forgive them and isn't obliged to. Another step was taking responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. Not "those vipers on Mumsnet told her not to go back to me, it's all their fault" but "I loused up big-time and I understand why she might not want to go back to me and that she has every right not to". Unless and until an abuser accepts these points they will never be cured. They can mend their behaviour to a certain extent but the underlying attitude will always be there, ruining any chance of an equal, respectful relationship with the ex-partner or any others in the future.