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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Can we have some support on 'why women don't leave?'

74 replies

Darcey2105 · 23/01/2015 15:33

About a year ago I heard about a campaign on twitter where women were holding up signs saying why they didn't leave their abusive partner. It was things like 'because he'd track me down and kill me', 'because I had no where to go' and 'because he slept in front of the door so I couldn't get out'.

The point of the campaign was to stop making the abuse the women's fault for putting up with it. The point is less, why don't women leave, more why won't abusive men let women leave. Or even, why don't men stop abusing women?

Reading that campaign made me feel so much better about myself. I've been on mumsnet loads, and every little thing I write hoards of people are telling me to leave that night.

I have left 3 times and been homeless twice, once with a 9month old baby, and once when pregnant with a little toddler. It was so unbelievably awful, that it was a welcome relief to get back into my own house.

My husband is still horrific, and I demand a divorce every night, but no way is he letting me go. I see the disgust on my friends faces when I tell them what he's like. But their disgust is for me not leaving. These are friends who saw when I was homeless before - where am I supposed to go when I've got a job to hold down and 2 toddlers to support?

This threat is less about what do I do, I'm now finally getting support through women's aid. But it's about people on hearing of the problem saying 'just leave'. It's not helpful, as it makes the woman feel wretched when she can't leave, as she thinks its her own fault.

Instead ask 'how can you arrange to get away from him?' It's a small difference, but it helps her work through exploring her options.

Is anyone with me here?

OP posts:
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bibliomania · 14/05/2015 12:59

Congrats on the good new relationship, FuckYou.

Sorry to hear about your friends' situations, Vivacia and imjust. I do truly regret the anxiety I put my parents during all the time they were secretly hoping I would leave.

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imjustahead · 14/05/2015 11:49

Vivacia I know.

Me too, I just see an amazing person going to rot. She wants me to visit, but i don't want to put my dc in that environment, but she needs me. I am sure he would behave, but my dc have seen arguments when we have visited before.
She is living in a cloud, but is aware she is iyswim, which is a good sign. This in some ways makes it more frustrating when she nearly gets the courage. I don't know, i just feel liek the worst friend at times not speaking up, then again i know i just have to be there. xx

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Vivacia · 14/05/2015 11:43

imjust that post really resonates with me and a friendship I have, including the geographical distance between us.
There are issues around financial abuse, emotional abuse and I suspect alcohol misuse on her part. But she refuses to acknowledge it. She's in her twenties but believes in being married for life and that divorce would be the worst thing ever for her children. Truth be told, she'd have more money, they'd have more time with their dad and she'd have ten times less work and stress.

About once a month I'll be in tears after being on the phone with her.

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imjustahead · 14/05/2015 11:36

As a friend of someone who has been living with an abusive alcoholic for 5 yrs, this is a good thread for me.

I often want to say things to her that I can't. She lives many hours from me and i sometimes think that if i lived closer she would leave. She has changed so much, and become short tempered and down, and sometimes I just don't understand how she can get to the point of saying right thats it, but then she just plods along because things have improved a bit.

She keeps hoping it will improve and stay that way, yet so far it never does.

At the moment children are in important exam times, and now she's has said she'll wait it out another two yrs till they are done in further education. That will make it 7 yrs that she has been unhappy. I don't know how to help her. :(

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FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 14/05/2015 11:31

Biblio, I completely agree with hearing from posters in good relationships being valuable. I'm now in a good relationship. I didn't actually think relationships really could be this good. I thought you were supposed to work and there'd be good bits and bad bits, and sometimes the bad bits would be really bad, but you'd hold out, hoping that the good bits came back.

Hearing how shocked people were with what I considered normal, helped a huge amount.

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bibliomania · 14/05/2015 11:22

I agree that leaving is a process rather than a single event. If it doesn't work out the first few times you try it, you don't want to people to make you feel weaker and stupider and undeserving of support for not getting all the way out immediately - you feel quite enough of that as it is.

That said, not everyone is the same. Having been in that situation:

  • "Just leave" helped me. It suddenly felt achievable, the kind of thing that people do all the time. Acknowledging it's hard is one thing, making the woman feel it's bloody impossible is quite another.


  • The fact that it was so hard and painful to leave stopped me from going back. I knew deep down that whatever he promised, I'd end up having to leave again, and I couldn't face going through the whole thing again. Its awfulness was helpful in an odd kind of way.


  • I would much rather have left than make him leave. Of course that doesn't apply to everyone, but I didn't want to be in a place where he could easily find me, where he would have been constantly lying in wait in the street. It was also important to me to change DD's nursery - I really think he would have just gone in and taken her before I had sorted out the court order. A few years later, when emotions were running less high, I was less concerned with him knowing where I lived and where DD was going to school, but I really needed some safe space where he couldn't find us. And there's something to be said for the pyschological advantage of a fresh start - a home where he's never lived, with no negative memories attached to it.


The only point I'm making is that there isn't one Right Thing to say to someone in this situation. Sharing experience helps a lot, but it can also help to hear from those in good relationships - their sheer incredulity at the treatment you're living with can be a really important reality check. There's more than one way to support a woman.
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Lweji · 14/05/2015 11:15

I meant it the other way. Those questions were meant to be what women are often thinking (and posting) and should be addressed when advising.

I can see that saying "it's possible" may seem like "why aren't you doing this?", but it depends on how it's phrased. The suggestions on how to do it and saying that we have done it should help deconstruct the immense building that we make up in our heads about leaving and about what can happen.

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Vivacia · 14/05/2015 11:07

Saying how you can leave the relationship is different and better compared to just saying leave. Where do you go? How will you support yourself? What if he has made threats? How will the children react?

I think that kind of approach is what some posters are saying comes across as hectoring and blaming. So, do we give practical advice and advocate LTB or do we just offer tea and sympathy?

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FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 14/05/2015 10:59

Thatsnotmynamereally, I shall drink a toast to never having to butter his bloody toast again Wine

It's the perfect explanation. I would say, "he hasn't paid the electricity bill when he said he would."

And people would say, "so why didn't you pay it?"

And I'd say, "because he told me he had, and then when we got a reminder, he said he had then too."

Then I'd get, "well you know what he's like, you should have called every utility and checked it was paid."

And I'd say, "but I'm so anxious now [carefully leaving out all the other things he was doing to me] that I find it hard to pick up the phone. And the utilities would think I was stupid not asking my husband."

And they would say, "Don't be stupid, just pick up a phone. You should always do everything. You know how useless he is."

And I would stop complaining about the bailiffs banging on my door about bills I though were paid, or loans that were taken out that I never knew about. I shut up because it was my fault for being stupid, and the stupider I was, the more anxious I got, and the smaller my cage became.

Bloody toast! Wine

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thatsnotmynamereally · 14/05/2015 10:42

I have a lot to thank MN for. I knew I was in a crap relationship before, but I always thought it was bad relationship dynamics and that I was playing my part. This was a vew that was upheld by my (minimal) experience with Relate, pre MN, I was told to 'see things from his point of view' and asked 'did he have a bad childhood?' and I felt cheated as I'd paid money to have someone completely ignore my saying 'he calls me a mad bitch every time I don't butter his toast right' or something to that effect.

And I was thinking 1) I know I shouldn't be buttering his toast but he yells at me if I don't 2) he should appreciate me, what's going on, am I that bad, when I look around I think I'm not that bad but I must be that bad because other wives don't get yelled at like I do, they must be really good at buttering toast and I'm really crap at it, I should try harder to butter his toast correctly... (and so on) so to be told that I should see things from his point of view was NOT the revelation I was hoping for. Only on MN did I hear people saying FFS WOMAN WHY ARE YOU BUTTERING HIS TOAST!

Unfortunately I haven't left him yet but am in the process, I gave him divorce papers last week which he crumpled up, I un-crumpled them and personally handed to him this morning. It's not because of any major burst of self confidence I've had but I'm past the point of being fed up and I am now certain that no amount of change on my part will make him into a decent human being. It is a different attitude on here for the most part as I don't think LTB is part of the traditional Relate/etc mindset (I had no idea what it stood for when I first posted here and got a resounding LTB).

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scallopsrgreat · 14/05/2015 10:37

I think saying to an abused woman you must leave can come across, to them, as just another set of people trying to control their actions. They have an abusive man directing how they should behave and then more people telling her she needs to leave. Hope that makes sense, I'm not particularly articulate this morning!

I absolutely agree though that abused women need to be told it is OK to leave, that what they are experiencing is abuse and their abuser won't change their behaviour for the better.

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FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 14/05/2015 10:19

:o too true.

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MorrisZapp · 14/05/2015 10:09

Me too. Not because of abuse but I had PND and it was brilliant coming on here not just for advice but to be amongst strong, funny women, most of whom have been through their own shit.

That's the joy of MN. Somebody always has their finger on the pulse and can give you the best and latest advice. And somebody else can link to the Fucking Matt Damon video. It all helps.

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FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 14/05/2015 10:01

Aw shucks Blush I owe a bunch of strangers an awful lot. You all helped give me my life back.

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MorrisZapp · 14/05/2015 09:53

Thanks Chris. You're a brilliant presence on these threads and you have the best user name on the site.

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MorrisZapp · 14/05/2015 09:51

And what sickofrozen said. I'm a feminist and I believe in tackling male privilege, societal inequality and institutional misogyny at source. I think we do need to shift towards blaming perpetrators and not victims.

However, we also need to educate women and girls about financial independence. Too often, women are trapped in appalling situations because they've handed over financial control to a man. Then he can do what he likes and the woman can't leave or she'd be homeless.

By the time somebody is on here, broken and begging, it's too late to address societal inequality and it's too late to make her hold on to her own purse strings. So all we can do is offer advice relevant to the posters own circumstances.

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FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 14/05/2015 09:48

Morris, I'm with you. It's not selfish to reach out, say leave, and suggest practicalities. These things all helped me. I wouldn't be as happy as I am without people reaching out like that.

The blaming comes in when posters want the op to leave immediately and can't see why that might not be possible. I don't see that regularly, and it's usually called out as unhelpful.

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MorrisZapp · 14/05/2015 09:44

You're implying I'm selfish for wanting to encourage a woman in need to gather her strength and make a difficult change in her life.

I've never just said 'leave' and I never would.

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Sickoffrozen · 14/05/2015 09:42

I always advocate financial independence to women. It is something every mother should educate their daughters on. Lack of this leads to lack of choice and makes decision making much more difficult.

My mother was in an abusive relationship for all of her married life. This abuse was never physical but mentally my dad shattered her. She never had financial independence and talked to me about this when I was a teen and making life decisions. It has always stuck with me and I know that I could walk away from my current partner tomorrow and live the same life I do now, just without him.

Unfortunately, making men see the error of their ways and wiping out abuse is not going to happen. They have been educated too well by their abusive fathers!

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FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 14/05/2015 09:42

It took me 5 years to LTB. In real life I couldn't tell anyone how bad it got. In fact I didn't even tell MN everything.

People saying LTB gave me the permission I needed to go. But I didn't succeed until I had built up my self esteem a tiny bit, and had some friends I could rely on.

MN was very patient with me. They said leave. They said he won't change. But I always felt supported and as though all the blame lay with him.

I do now say LTB where I feel it's right. But I'm fully aware that it takes time and any pressure can make it all worse.

I agree that asking, "why don't you leave?" Is not the right question. Flowers for you op. This is a great message to share.

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fuzzywuzzy · 14/05/2015 09:41

I can see where Morris is coming from, words of sympathy/encouragement validation for the way the OP is feleing are sometimes much needed amongst the advice and empathy.

I do think on the whole Posters are given a lot of support on MN, poesters do get frustrated when the same poster returns time and again and won't listen, it's especially terrifying when young chidlren are involved

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didyouwritethe · 14/05/2015 09:35

"Wanting to say something" is about you, though, Morris, isn't it - you need to think about the OP.

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MorrisZapp · 14/05/2015 09:33

I must be reading different threads then. I see reams of practical advice given, links, advice on benefits, advice on housing, advice on the truth of child 'custody' (ie no he can't just say you're mad and get the kids taken off you) and even offers of real life help from people who live locally.

Simply saying 'leave' is of course not helpful in itself but I very rarely see this without some sympathy or advice also added. I don't know as much as some of the other more experienced posters so I don't often give specific housing advice etc but I can say yes, what they said, no it's not your fault, the kids will thank you in the long run etc etc.

If the OP is heart rending and awful then I can't help wanting to say something.

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didyouwritethe · 14/05/2015 09:32

I think it's also about taking the time to post thoughtfully, and asking yourself whether you're being helpful or not before you press "post". If you haven't got time to think before you post, don't post.

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fuzzywuzzy · 14/05/2015 09:30

IMO I don't think people offering advice need to have been in the situation themselves.

But offering practical advice is very helpful that's why I always do tend to post up the womens aid number, the rights of women number and suggest the freedom programme, but I guess the advice is always dependant on the stage the person's at.

My first lightbulb moment was when I posted up a thread in s&b and Cod was like errr hellloooo why is everyone ignoring that her husband is dictating to her what she should wear... I didn't LTB then but it was the start to acceptign that my feeligns were valid that twatface was not reasonable or acceptable behaving the way he was towards me in the smallest of things (in my mind) therefore I must be at least a bit right about the bigger things as well.

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