quarrel: trying to find a way forward

[matildasquared]

So my husband's elder brother is much older than us, about 75. I just say that to give context. You should probably think of him as a FIL-type rather than a BIL.

He's my husband's only surviving family and they're fairly close. He makes an effort to be a kind/good sort, used to be a lawyer, volunteers.

But he's an absolute pig to his wife, and he thinks sexually harassing women is a way of connecting with them.

I've been with my husband for ten years, married for nearly seven. This is literally the only thing we have ever quarrelled about.

I have tried over and over again to be friends with BIL. At the beginning we had a serious problem with his over-eagerness to hug and kiss and squeeze me, until I had to have a serious talk with him over it and he stopped.

He's one of those who gibbers insults at his wife absolutely non-stop. It is so depressing to be around. For variety he'll "flirt" with a waitress or make a comment about my sexy legs. #grim

The last time we spent time with them (Jan) we had a horrible day out during which I was basically trapped in a car with that bullshit. I managed to keep civil but my husband had a go at me afterwards for being "cold." Hey, it was either that or jump out of the fucking car. Husband and I quarrelled bitterly.

Husband has invited BIL and his wife to ours for the first weekend of July. Cleared it with me first. Fine. Today husband asked whether I'd like to go and see a show with them on the Saturday and then go to see the Tour de France (day out) on the Sunday. No thank you and no thank you. I'll just go to the stables and see you in the evening.

Husband got the hump. I don't want to go see the Tour de France? Really I don't? Really I don't? Am I sure?

We tried to have a talk about it but got nowhere. I was telling him I wasn't mad at him, it was his brother. But I wasn't going to put myself in a position of being trapped with that again. Why would I?

I tried to ask him how he felt but now frankly I regret it. He said, "There's a lot of lovey-doveyness around here but when it comes to a real test of love and tolerance you do this." Oh, and also he said they've been very welcoming to me (I'm foreign) and are his only family. Also I can't judge their marriage.

I said, "Yes, but those things co-exist. He has been welcoming to me and he's also sexually harassed me. And of course I can judge the way he treats his wife, because it's wrong and upsetting to be around."

Why can't the "love and tolerance" thing be BIL's responsibility too? Because, I'm told, he won't change. Oh okay then.

Husband made some comments around how I was winding myself up and no one else had a problem with BIL (except for BIL's step-children who won't let them near his teenaged step-granddaughters anymore but evidently that doesn't count).

I said I could feel a lot better about the whole thing if husband would just acknowledge that I've been doing my best to be civil and it's a lot to put up with. "I don't see it that way," he says and goes up to play with his computer.

Okay, fuck you too.

Just a vent, really.

And anyone who tries to rationalise misogyny to me because he's "old" is going to get their head bitten off (metaphorically speaking).

[unrealhousewife]

Excellent. If they're good guys they might put some perspective on BILs behaviour.

[matildasquared]

He's going out for a long walk with two old friends today. I know them--they're good guys. His friends more than mine though.

I'm out to work. I told him: "Feel free to ask [friends] for their advice/ideas around our quarrel, or just vent to them. I don't mind. I don't have any secrets from them."

He seemed surprised. "Really?" Yes! He said he might do that.

[matildasquared]

He's in a state now, bless him. He's gone out to play bridge with his usual gang so that's good.

[unrealhousewife]

Long post beware - I have a proper keyboard now!

The thing with men like the BIL is that they don't do it 'deliberately' they do it quite subconsciously as it's their only means of functioning in a relationship. Have you ever read up about narcissistic personality disorder - I think this is what he's about. They instinctively choose weak people to have a relationship with - their relationships can only work in a sub/dom way to put it crudely. Sadly many victims of these men have also had these relationships modelled to them when younger and have normalised it.

These people have a honed sense of how far they can push people in order to get their needs met, the ones that 'survive' are often very smart, excellent at getting people to work for them if you like. The outcome is an abusive relationship but they are not dark psychopath evil characters, they are predatory but never kill their prey. Now that he's in his 70s he is unlikely to change and he will have spent years justifying his bad behaviour and will have convinced himself that everyone else is wrong and he is right.

Your DH seems to be breaking the cycle now and he will probably need support and encouragement to get through it. I got most of my information about this from 'The Emotionally Abusive Relationship' by Beverley Engel and many other mumsnet threads. There are really good explanations about why people become like that - this is what I have found most useful. When you understand their motives you don't get drawn into it - you understand that their behaviour is completely dysfunctional and you can work your way round it so you don't get hurt.

I think your instincts are spot on about him, and without reading any books you seemed to know exactly what needed to happen so do keep on trusting your instincts. BIL nearly won though, his clear intention will be to cause conflict between you and DH and you seem to have avoided that.

[matildasquared]

No, I didn't mean to throw it back at you. I appreciate your perspective.

[summerflower]

If you don't think it is manipulative, fair enough. I may have been projecting my own experience, which I did find manipulative.

[matildasquared]

I'm not entirely convinced the being-smoochy-with-brother's-wife is so well thought-out, to be frank. I think it's more that if you don't see women as fully human you'll just grab and smooch them whenever the urge strikes you, the same way you'd stroke horses in a stable.

But it's still food for thought.

[matildasquared]

I think being smoochy with you brother's wife is fairly abusive, as if he's saying 'look what I can get away with in front of my weak brother'.

I never thought of it that way. That's interesting.

[unrealhousewife]

But of course that won't necessarily be a bad thing.

[unrealhousewife]

I think being smoochy with you brother's wife is fairly abusive, as if he's saying 'look what I can get away with in front of my weak brother' it is a gesture of dominance.

And bullying doesn't need to be physical. DH's refusal will be a very big thing between them, prepare him that BIL will probably react very negatively and might hold it against him forever.

[matildasquared]

That's a thought, mistlethrush. Brother certainly doesn't seem at all inhibited by my presence but what do I know?

Husband hasn't been bullied by his brother in my presence. There are sometimes some patronising big-brother comments but nothing at all weird or off.

[RiverTam]

no, not bless him, He is being very passive-aggressive in saying he'll un-invite them, instead of dealing with the situation himself.

[mistlethrush]

Is there any degree do you think that he wants you there because he's afraid of his brother and having you there gives him more backing and his brother won't dare to go as far with you there?

[matildasquared]

Yesterday when husband and I were "discussing" things he said, "But Matilda, you're upset over one incident..."

And I cut him off to say, "One instance? First having to fend off all the snuggles and smooches, then his creepy comments, then listening to him emotionally abuse his wife, giving him chance after chance for the last seven years..."

Husband cut me off, saying, "You keep saying those things and it's like a jab to me each time."

I said, "You're not doing it. I'm not mad at you. I'm sorry I keep saying it but I don't know why you keep pretending not to understand."

Oh hey ho.

[matildasquared]

I don't think husband is sulking. And while I'm grateful for the comments above I don't think it's necessarily "manipulative" to have a sad look on one's face when one is sad. A person can feel how they feel in their own home.

[matildasquared]

I don't know what, exactly, he might fear about his brother. That his brother will have a tantrum?

I've just remembered that there was evidently one incident of BIL slapping husband when husband had had too much to drink. This happened long before we met. I think husband's forgotten telling me about this.

I haven't seen any evidence of physicality. Certainly my husband knows me and knows that any sort of assault nonsense I see gets reported to the police, no matter who's involved.

Fear doesn't always have logical, specific sources though, does it?

[unrealhousewife]

In that case he deserves sympathy, despite the sulking. He's done a very big thing standing up to him.

[matildasquared]

Yeah, sometimes. He's confessed a few instances of bullying. His brother has also helped him a lot over the years. He freely admits that his brother is a pain in the ass but then I do get this weird feeling that he's afraid of him.

Their dad was a huge sexist bully. Their mom was terribly worn down by it all.

Not saying my family is any better. But that's why they're not being shoved in my husband's face.

[unrealhousewife]

Was he bullied by his brother?

[matildasquared]

We had a pleasant chat this morning. When I came home from work just now (half day), he was sound asleep on the bed in the study. That's weird.

[unrealhousewife]

I meant a conflict with his brother, is he afraid of him?

[unrealhousewife]

Interesting development. Do you think he's dis inviting him because he is afraid of a conflict?

[summerflower]

The reason for anger here has nothing to do with BIL, and everything to do with your DH's behaviour.

Just want to be clear here that I was not condoning BIL's behaviour, obviously your position is stemming from what is unacceptable there, but my point was more that it could have been any number of reasons why the day out was not acceptable to you, your DH's reaction is unwarranted.

[AnyFucker]

he is going to disinvite him ? So he hasn't done it yet

He is going to give you the guilt trip, isn't he ?

Ignore the bleating you will get. This is your husband's fault for not standing up to his brother in the first place, or not havig the wit to make alternative arrangements that drag you into it when you have made it clear you want no part

[FunkyBoldRibena]

So either you do everything he demands, or you get blamed for spoiling everyone's fun.

What a win-win arrangement you've got going there.

Why can't he just entertain his brother on his own?