Lies again???

[Bocolatechiscuit]

Hi there,

I'm new to mumsnet having only posted once before on behalf of a friend of mine worrying about her newborn. This time though I have a worry of my own and wondered if you wise lot could offer me some advice or even just a bit of perspective.

I've been with my new partner just over a year. We live together with my son and his son comes to us every other weekend. He is a wonderful man in many ways and absolutely adores me. My ex had lied and cheated and I had put up with it for years before finally plucking up the courage to make the break. My new partner knows how the lies killed me and how important it is for us to be open with each other and totally honest.

On Wednesday his ex wife called me to discuss some issues we have been having with my partner's boy when he comes to stay with us. We're really lucky in that we are both on amicable terms with our exes and deal with the children together. Something came up in the conversation though which made me suspicious. She seemed to be skirting around some issues to do with the son which I couldn't understand.

The following morning I spoke to my partner about it and he was equally cagey. I can't be too specific for various reasons but I could basically tell he was lying to me. Thanks to my ex I can spot lies a mile off and just knew. I asked him outright and he just lied to my face, denying anything. All day we were in touch whilst at work and he continued to lie, insisting I was being paranoid, called me stupid, how dare I question his integrity, how dare I believe he could be deceitful, texting me things like 'I AM NOT TELLING LIES'.

In the end it transpires he HAD lied. Over and over and over. Despite so many chances he had refused to admit it and actually turned it around to me and was really quite angry with him for dating to disbelieve him. It turns out he had asked his wife not to tell me something regarding their son and when I grew suspicious, asked her to continue lying for him. They were texting all day yesterday discussing how they could cover it up and then he deleted all the offending messages before he came home.

I am absolutely devastated as I believed he would never lie to me. As it happens I totally understand why he didn't want me to know this issue regarding his son-there is a tremendous amount of guilt and shame there, but what I don't understand is all the lies, anger, deflection onto me and the deleting of messages to cover himself further. I saw patterns of what happened with my ex. He denied things just like he did, right up to the point of having no choice but to admit, but even then only admitting the tiny bit that he had to, and still denying the rest.

I don't know where to go from here. Can I trust this man? He sees it as him getting into a mess by lying the first time and seeing no way out. He was so upset last night and has been begging me all day for forgiveness.

Am I right to be devastated or am I overreacting and allowing my issues with my ex husband to cloud my judgement?

Sorry it's long, but any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Boc. X

[AnyFucker]

This thread illustrates precisely why it's often not the original lie that is the problem, but the gaslighting and attempts to batter down your self belief by the liar that is really so very corrosive

What a shame this man really did demonstrate so overtly he is just like any other liar, and yes, employed the very same tactics your ex did

The rose tinted spectacles are crushed and in the dustbin now, I expect

[Infernal]

Once the lies start, they go on. You need to explain to this guy that this is the last time. Relationships cannot be built on lies. Stick it to him and his ex, that you won't tolerate it.

[BrunoBrookesDinedAlone]

No. Don't save it.

What you now have is a dynamic where he has colluded with his ex wife to deceive you. So she knows that he's willing to lie to you, and will side with her against you. I couldn't live with that kind of absolute betrayal, and I couldn't even try to stand up and believe that I was even slightly respected when it comes to the ongonig necessary negotiations, discussions, everyday life that she will have to be a part of because of the children etc.

You're right, it's not the original lie - though that is bad, you could accept that issues surrouding his son might very well not be your business (although just saying that would be better than trying to lie).

It's what has come after that - utter deceitfulness. You know what he's capable of. The fact that he's paraded how little he respects you in front of his ex (who will either be thinking 'thank god that sucker isn't me any more' OR laughing her socks off at you) would simply be the icing on a very nasty cake.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

It's not ok that he lied but you seem to say yourself there was an understandable reason behind it. Once the lie is told he stood by it until he couldn't any more. He sounds like he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

He did more than just lie, he piled on the "You're so paranoid and deluded" schtick. And dragged his exW into it.

He knows what OP's former partner was like. He's been in her life a year. He could have lied or evaded without the extra "how dare you" bombast.

But you are keen to salvage this so best of luck I hope he realises how forgiving you are and more importantly that he is honest with you in future.

[NotNewButNameChanged]

There is a thread in AIBU where a guy was saying that he loves his DP who has a 17-yr old daughter who will be his stepdaughter when they marry and live together but that his DP has said that she will never, ever discuss the stepdaughter's father. Ever. He has no idea if this is because the stepdaughter is as the result of some abuse, whether the father is still around, whether he might suddenly show up and cause trouble. And he is not allowed to ask. It is forbidden to even discuss it.

The almost universal consensus was that it is nothing to do with him.

No doubt those people would also argue discussions with the mother of his child isn't actually anything to do with you.

That's one side of things. Of more importance is how he went about it and how he behaved afterwards. THAT, for me, is the deal breaker.

[CinnabarRed]

I agree with Isetan.

The other thing I raise is this: in the cold light of day, was it a reasonable thing to have kept from you?

By which I mean: could it affect you, your son or the way either of you interact with your P and/or his son?

I'm concerned that it's something about which your P feels shame and guilt. Ask yourself: did he do something wrong, or bad, that casts additional and unflattering light on himself and which might call his judgements into question? Or his parenting? Is your DSS better off for you knowing? Is your P's reaction of shame and guilt wrong somehow (eg I would struggle to accept it if my DH were ashamed of a gay brother - I know it's not this issue, but something like that might bring a whole other issues to light).

[Isetan]

What exactly OP do you personally have to work on? The lie is the red herring here, the name calling and questioning your mental health is the red flag. The only thing he has learnt from all this is that tears and puppy dog eyes work better at getting you to STFU than abuse.

[mammadiggingdeep]

You now know he can lie. And lie. And lie. And keep it up until he HAS to come clean.

Can you be with him knowing that?

[oneperfectlimousine]

Yes, he knew it was a deal breaker to you, and went ahead and did it anyway - then got aggressive when you challenged him. If he gets away with it now, there will be more. Is he sorry for lying, do you think, sorry for being aggressive, or sorry that he was caught - sorry for himself that is? IMO there's a big difference between sorry for his behaviour and sorry for himself because now he might lose you.

I'd also agree that there were better ways to deal with the situation - saying that they were keeping whatever it is between himself, his ex and his son for now maybe.

[Bocolatechiscuit]

Thanks again everyone. We have had a horrible day-lots of tears and sadness but importantly lots of talking too. I've shown him the thread and believe he does genuinely accept what he has done was very wrong. He knows we have a long way to go to getting anywhere near to normal and that he has to work his socks off for me to trust him again, but we both hope and believe that with lots of hard work we can save this.

Thank you again-I really do appreciate it.

[BillyBanter]

I didn't say it wasn't an option. I asked if she would leave it if he had said that.

There is a backstory here that we are not privy to.

[Isetan]

BillyBanter "There is something but I'd prefer not to say" was an option. Given her history he chose to do the one thing that was guaranteed to hurt her and questioning her mental health was designed to get her to STFU.

There is a calculated disrespectful nastiness to his behaviour which will make it difficult to dismiss.

[Isetan]

Actions speak louder than words. You thought he would never lie to you because he said so and now you know different because he's done so.

Listen to Hissy, if you are inclined to 'get past this' then you have to take a very hard line and show him (actions and all that), not tell him, that this is serious.

He knew what your boundaries were and not only did he step over them he rubbed your face in it and recruited his Ex to take part in the performance.

[BillyBanter]

If he'd said 'it's private and I'd rather not say' would you just have left it?

It's not ok that he lied but you seem to say yourself there was an understandable reason behind it. Once the lie is told he stood by it until he couldn't any more. He sounds like he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I think you need to make it clear that lying is not acceptable, and pushing your buttons on something from your history is even less acceptable but maybe you also need to assure him that he shouldn't have to be worried about your reactions to things. (It's hard to tell without knowing the full backstory)

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Tears was it? Well I suppose it's marginally better than calling you stupid and paranoid. Being extremely charitable, he could be genuinely remorseful and have learned from the experience, but that's not going to stop you from thinking back over your relationship so far and wondering if he's hidden anything else or from having your suspicions in future. I'm not surprised you're sad.

[Hissy]

Look, this is a new relationship, you haven't got anything concrete that ties you, you owe it to yourself and your ds to have a better man than this in your life.

I don't know exactly how long it took him to move into your home, but with hindsight it was way too soon. You didn't know him.

This is him showing you who he is. A starter too, cos it will happen again, and he will be nasty about it.

How dare he call you 'stupid' and 'paranoid' when you managed to spot something was up. his actions there were the unforgivable bit here, shows a gaping hole in his morals and a nastiness towards you/women.

He needs to move out while you re-evaluate what you want to happen.

If you don't go in this hard now, it'll seem to him that all he has to do is cry a bit, say he didn't mean it (he flipping did) and he'll bamboozle you into STFU and getting on with stuff.

You are the only one who gets to decide what happens next.

He's a liar, and a nasty one. If you give him enough of a shock, he might learn never to lie to you again.

[Bocolatechiscuit]

Thank you everyone.

Well there have been lots of tears tonight (on both sides) and lots of anger (on mine). I am just SO cross with him for doing this. Isetan hit the nail on the head talking about the 'corrosive' nature of finding someone had lied. It's in my head now-he is capable of lying to me. Two days ago he was (to me) someone who would simply not do that. Now that's all gone.

He is extremely sorry, is just sitting and taking my anger because he understands totally why I'm angry, and is just begging me to give him another chance to prove he is who I think he is. He's fast asleep while I'm awake and worrying. I'm just really sad.

Thank you all again-you've been great.

[Isetan]

"I'd prefer not to say" was a valid answer to your questions but he chose aggressive name calling as a defence strategy and used your understandable anxiety about lying as a weapon to attack you. He also actively asked his Ex to lie to you, thus damaging the relationship with her. Has he sincerely apologised or is he still brazening it out? He has just shown you who he is, listen.

It will be difficult to isolate the incident as this type of behaviour is corrosive, you start questioning yourself even though he is the one who behaved appallingly.
Self doubt is not a strong position, especially in a relatively new relationship phase. It appears that him moving in has more significance to you with regards to the status and depth of your relationship.

This is very serious and the pressure 'to get back on track" sweep it under the carpet will be immense but the onus is on him to make this right (if that's possible). You're in a relatively new relationship phase and the way you handle this could set the tone for the future of this relationship.

[sykadelic]

His behaviour after the lie is so awful and totally overrides the lie, that's a given. It's not okay to lie, but it's worse to try and make you feel stupid and like you're going crazy. Even worse was him bringing what you went through with your ex into it and also shows he knows how to push your buttons and has no qualms about using it against you to get himself out of trouble... that's a huge issue.

The other issue I would have is him thinking its okay to keep something from you. I know you said you understood why he wouldn't want to tell you, but you're a family now. You live together. What happens with the kids, or issues with the kids, can affect you and your child as well. Obviously we don't know what it is and you do, but it's hardly setting the tone that you're all a "team" if he keeps you out of it.

I don't know if I'd LTB as it's the first time (that you know about), but I would certainly tell him there will be no other chances. I suppose it depends how attached you are to him now, and whether you're willing to take a chance or leave now before you get more attached.

[tribpot]

He called you stupid, and said you were paranoid.

Irrespective of the reason, are those acceptable ways to deflect you from something you could see was being concealed?

[Bocolatechiscuit]

Well kind of, Doc. I could just tell they were both covering for each other. I brought up the subject with him that she'd been cagey about, guessed what it was (correctly), but because he's embarrassed/guilty, he said no, I was wrong. I could tell he was lying so pushed it and then he dug his heels in, saying why didn't I just believe him, how could I think he'd lie etc etc. Then I put two and two together with the things his ex had said and realised he must've asked her not to mention it either and so asked him that too. He said no. Then he just dug his heels in further and when I said 'I know you're lying, I'm not stupid', he said 'well you clearly are because I'm not lying' and then said things like 'your paranoia is ruining us'. Then of course it all came out-he had lied, he had asked her to lie.

But yes, it's what came after the original lie about his son that bothers me. Yuck.

[DocDaneeka]

So was it - for arguments sake comparable to a situation where his son had been diagnosed with some hereditary illness, not life limiting but 'there' iyswim. And may impact his future, but not anyone's immediate present.

You had guessed something was up, asked what was the matter with the son

If your dh had said ' please don't ask about this, it's mine and my sons private matter'

Then that would be fine and you could accept it

It was the fact that he lied, made you out to be unhinged when he could have quite reasonably just said myob.

Yeah, that's bad.

[3mum]

It would be a deal breaker for me (and yes I have a lying ex-H). Not so much the keeping something sensitive about his DS secret (although I totally agree with DIYapprentice that he should have said something like it's about my son, it is a sensitive and private issue and I don't want to discuss it") but I could not ever live with a man who lied repeatedly and abused me calling me paranoid and stupid.

That is not the behaviour of a good man. It was not necessary. It shows how he will behave on issues he deems important enough to lie about in the future (and indeed how he feels entitled to behave to you full stop). You would not see me for dust.

He has shown you what he is really like. Heed the warning.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Look at it this way. He had some sensitive information about his son that he didn't want to share for (let's assume) valid reasons. He could have handled this in any number of ways that would have maintained the confidence but still treated you with respect. He could have said, for example, 'something has happened involving DS that I can't share with you yet but please trust me to deal with it for now'.... but he didn't. Instead he went straight for plots, secrecy, lies and.... worst of all... aggression when challenged. That's not love or respect.

I think that's what you tell him and, if he gets aggressive about it again, call it a day.

[Bocolatechiscuit]

I want us to get through this. Am I deluding myself he'll see how hurt I am and never do it again?