Just how do you know if you can/should trust someone?

[FolkGirl]

My upbringing was very emotionally abusive and I went NC with my mother last year. I separated from my husband after his affair and learned he'd been lying to my throughout our entire marriage. From his perspective, he thought if he never told me anything that could upset me, I'd always be happy and all he wanted was for me to be happy... but it meant he lied about absolutely everything - big and small; important or not.

I've learned to not trust people but I don't want to live like that. I know it has to be earned/built and all that, but in the early days, you just have to take someone at face value, surely?

So I've been trying to do that and I smile and accept it. But I can always see the lie in it. Because ultimately however likely, "sorry I can't meet you for breakfast tomorrow, I've just found out I'm driving my severely disabled grandmother back to her nursing home 100 miles away first thing. Really sorry, I'll make it up to you" is. In my head, it becomes: "I'm blowing you out and this is how I'm doing it."

I obviously can't ask someone directly! So how do you know?

I don't have an instinct for it, so don't tell me to trust my gut feeling! I don't have one.

[FolkGirl]

Ha married yes, that sounds very much like the sort of thing my mother would say, and very much like the pattern of her relationships.

I haven't seen/spoken to her in 18 months and yet everything she said is very fresh at the moment for a number of reasons.

I'm sorry you've experienced it too, but it's nice to read your replies and know that you 'get it'. Thanks.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Sounds like mine Folk. So not you. My mother told me no one would be interested either. And funnily enough her cry has always been "I've never had any trouble getting a man" - no love I inwardly say but you made two unhappy and the one you're with now (30+ yrs) has only hung on for the money. But I never do say. In her eyes I'm still inadequate and she tries to make out my DC are hard done by and have so much less than I had.

You're fine Folk but it never stops hurting.

[FolkGirl]

Thanks Married yes, I think you're probably right. Perhaps I should stop looking.

Annoying thing is, my mother was 42 when she and my dad separated. She's barely been single! Now, her judgement wasn't always spot on... but she never seemed to have any trouble attracting/keeping someone. Which then makes me think that perhaps all those things she said to me were true and I'm deluding myself by even thinking someone would want me anyway!

Thanks joblot, I'll read that :)

[joblot]

I have been reading and rereading this article recently. It has helped me get a better perspective on trust. See what you think

Http://dharmawisdom.org/teachings/articles/trust-issues

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Well perhaps you should stop trying folk. IME men are a bit like buses - when you decide to walk and plough your own furrow one turns up when you least expect it.

You sound lovely by the way x

[FolkGirl]

Oh married if only it were that easy!

I currently do 4 different evening activities (all of them mixed sex) I physically can't fit anything else into my week! There's a social side of all of them so I do mix socially, but all the men I meet are too old, too young, too married, too gay or just not attracted/attractive to me.

My first dates always go really well and when they haven't progressed to a second or third it's been because there's not been a spark for either of us, or because it's my choice.

Yes Lazy I think you're right.

[Lazyjaney]

I dont think you are unhinged OP. IMO if you suspect something isn't right it's time to be on your guard.

iME those most taken in are more likely to believe what people say, rather than watch the actions. Watching actions means it takes a longer time to believe they are generally trustworthy but it's more reliable.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Not that I have ever so much as been on an internet dating site. I was simply making an analogy

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Folkgirl If I turn back the clock 35 years (with one exception) I had a string of unsuccessful relationships with boyfriends behind me that never worked out. For a long long time I though it was me because everyone else had a lovely boyfriend or was getting married. If I reflect I think a lot of all the other people's relationships were far from perfect and many broke up by the time they were in their mid 30s due to too much compromise over important things like honesty and principles.

Eventually I met DH and didn't have a single doubt; it just took me a long time to meet the right one and along the way I had to weed out a few wrong-uns but I'm glad I did and didn't compromise because then I wouldn't have been so happy. It didn't mean there wasn't an awful lot of doubt along the way though and I think I was extra cautious because I didn't want to be undermined or made to feel insecure and unhappy again after my childhood and I knew the only thing I really really wanted was children but only if they could have something far happier than I had.

Good luck and keep your dodgyblokedar well honed because eventually you will come across a non dodge. Is the internet the right place though? Wouldn't you better off joining an evening class or a walking group or something that interests you so that even if there isn't someone nice you still get the pleasure of doing something new and something you might be able to talk about if you do happen to meet the right one.

I might be terribly out of date but internet dating is a bit like internet shopping to me. I like to have a good look at it before I buy it rather than sending it back for a refund.

[FolkGirl]

Well I got my answer. He was making excuses. So I ended it.

It would seem that my Trust Tracker isn't wonky and so the next time I start to over analyse, I shall save myself some time and just accept that I'm being lied to.

[cjel]

scary thing is I don't think you sound unhinged at all .
I have reverted to thinking of my self as 13-16 in my head as those were the times I was 'myself' and happy (I'm 53 now!)
It has been helpful for me but then that is the time that I was confident to trust myselfx

[FolkGirl]

I know what you mean, cjel. I've been on the waiting list for counselling since March. They told me it would be an 8-10 week waiting list. I've been on it for nearly 8 months now! I really hope it comes through soon!

I'm just so cross with myself too because I feel like I'm 15 again. I could have entitled this thread "Do you think he likes me?" because essentially, that's what/why I'm asking!! And what I end up doing is over thinking and over analysing because I can't trust my judgement and I can't just sit back and think nothing because I need things to be more 'organised' than that.

So when I saw this man on Friday night, in a slip of the tongue he said "well my last girlfriend..." and then corrected himself to say "well my ex". Did he correct himself because he thought he'd revealed himself and what he's thinking unintentionally, or did he correct himself because it was a mistake and he didn't mean it? Who knows?! Well obviously, he does.

Did he cancel our breakfast date because he really did have something to do, or was it just an excuse?

I did meet him doing the dreaded OD. He hasn't been back on the website in the last week. I saw him twice last week. So he isn't back on there looking.

Argh! I could bang my head against a wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because I can't trust my judgement, every little thing that is said or done becomes massively significant because I can't tell what's significant and what's not and so everything gets overanalysed to within an inch of its life.

Fucking hate my head sometimes

At least I keep all these ponderings in my head and on here and don't offload IRL, eh?!

I'm going now. I'm beginning to sound a little unhinged...

[cjel]

I found that when I had counselling I learned to trust my own judgement. I had been so EA over the years I didn't think I knew anything and had to ask 20 people before I bought a dress!! Gradually I began to realise that what I like was ok and I think its the same with trusting people, we are so concerned because we don't think our judgement is valid and that can be scary.

[FolkGirl]

In the past I have been drawn to men with their own problems, yes. This time round though, I'm actively looking for someone who is 'sorted'. Which makes me wonder if I'm actually seeing 'sortedness' and 'un-neediness' as detached and disinterested because I'm so used to people who send/like to receive "just thinking about you" texts and emails etc several times a day.

I recently ended an embryonic relationship with someone because I realised he wasn't where I needed him to be emotionally and, as was said upthread, I couldn't be there to 'save' him.

I don't think I come across as emotionally fragile. The feedback I get from other people is generally complimentary and reflects how 'confident' and 'self assured' I am. Even though I don't necessarily feel it!

Perhaps if I was as confident and self assured as I appear, I wouldn't given some of these things a second thought!

[Meerka]

Dahlen put it really well actually and more succintly ! :) Specially the think about the pattern of behaviour.

"letting you donw gently" - a few things occured. firstly its an english thing not to speak plainly at times, which is really difficult and frustrating if you deal in plain speaking and don't always pick up hints (like me). Secondly, question: do you know if you happen to come over as slightly fragile emotionally? if it happens that you do, that might be part of it, they don't want to hurt you. Which in this case is covert cowardice on their part becuase they hurt you worse in the long run. Thirdly, if they are notably awkward and self deprecating, I wonder if you are drawn to men with their own problems? Just wondering.

none of those may apply! just small questions that came to mind.

[FolkGirl]

Dahlen you're right about the making a mental note of it, yes, and building up a picture of their trustworthiness. You're right, too, about the not owing anyone anything in the early stages. My instinct is to end it or just cut them off if a pattern begins to emerge, but I worry that I'm being a bit hasty or that I'm not being considerate enough. But I see that you're right and someone should be making an effort in those early days. If they're not making an effort, then it's something they're not that into. Which is fair enough.

I do think I'm a good person. And you're right. It's not even about evaluating them as an individual, it's just about saying, they're not right for me.

Meerka I agree with a lot of what you've said. Sadly, if you knew the sort of men I go for, you'd see that they're not at all dangerous or charming. They're usually quite awkward, self deprecating, intelligent and a bit geeky! I don't got for the type of man you'd normally associate with being an arse!

I think the lying in these men doesn't come from being a 'player', it comes from a not wanting to hurt your feelings and a believing they're letting you down gently. When I deal much more easily in black and white facts. If someone thinks I'll take the hint by being let down gently, I don't. And then it comes as a great big smack in the face and I feel stupid because all the signs were there. I suppose that's what I'm talking about really, when I ask how you know if you can/should trust someone. It's about recognising those signs. I think I've got more of an idea now!

[Meerka]

I think that for you, this is a two pronged thing. The suggestions I'm gonna make are my best guess. Some of them may not be right for you. Cogito's usually right for a start, that you can never guarentee finding a good un but everyone has to risk finding a bad un now and then, or they never try at all.

Firstly, your upbringing has given you a set of expectations about relationships and people. A sort of structure as to what you expect in a relationship under the laughter and chat and arguments. Becuase your upbringing was emotionally abusive, your expectations are skewed towards a less healthy model of relationships.

But this is not the end of the story. You can rewrite your expectations. It is possible, Im sure, because you're already aware that things arent right and trying to fix them. But you may need proper in depth therapy and to keep working at it. Honesty with yourself.

Secondly, there's things you can do now. One thing is to deliberately go for a different type of man. You may be drawn to lively, charming men who are great fun but actually are a bit dangerous - untrustworthy. The adrenaline from that sort of man can be quite addictive. Some people might shoot me for this, but consider going for 'safer', quieter, apparently less interesting but actually much more stable and decent men. Not to say that you gotta be bored ofc :D But something in between.

Also observe them over time. See if you find inconsistencies in what they say over time; unexplained absences etc. Lies. You can be prepared to trust without committing everything all at once; you can keep a tiny bit in reserve until you've observed for a few months, without actually being unfair. Its not so much paranoia as being careful and self protecting, since you know you are not as well equipped by your upbringing as some people. Which is in no way your fault, its just the hand of cards you were dealt.

Also experience over time does teach you what to look for in a liar or cheater, and you have built up some by now! If you see the same signs as you saw last time, you'll know what it means.

Lastly a very very telling thing about people is observing what they get angry about, and how they handle their anger. Do they get sly or snide or try to punish others? Or do they speak their anger, try to sort it out and then move on and leave it behind?

this time lastly; also, I think you are searching for love and sometimes find it hard to cut loose and so stay longer than you should. Therapy may help you there too, if not to change then at least to recognise it better.

Hope these help a tiny bit. Anyone from your sort of background has a bit more to overcome than people from more healthy backgrounds, but it is possible to find a good man. It really is :)

[Dahlen]

I've been very fortunate to have had wonderful parents who never let me down, so I think my outlook on trust is probably quite healthy. I tend to treat everyone as though they are trustworthy, while never allowing anyone enough involvement in my life to cause me problems if they abuse that trust until I have known them long enough to be assured that they won't.

Time is what is needed. For example, if someone broke off a date with me, I wouldn't necessarily view that with suspicion. I'd take it on face value. But I'd make a mental note of it. Every time someone does something that lets me down or raises uncomfortable feelings in me, I store that behaviour. Over time, if they are not trustworthy, you see a pattern emerging and can decide whether or not to commit to trusting them on a deeper level.

That won't necessarily help you on a date with a new bloke where you have no track record to measure him up against, but if he breaks several dates within a couple of months of knowing you, that should tell you that he is either untrustworthy or his life is not in a position where he can be relied upon - either of which is good enough reason to tell him thanks, but no thanks. In the early stages of a relationship no one deserves your time, support and understanding unless they have something to bring the table in return.

Do you like yourself? Do you think you're a good person? If you do (and reading your posts on here over time I think you should), anytime you're feeling a bit 'off' about someone, just ask yourself "would I say/do what x has just said/done". If the answer is no, chances are they probably aren't right for you.

Good luck.

[FolkGirl]

Just checked timetable for class - have a few minutes yet!!

basking absolutely. I have tended to regard men who seemed genuinely interested with a lack of respect. I mean just how shit would they have to be to like me!

married Indeed. I tried going on holiday with my mother and my son when my son was 4. When we got back he started referring to her as "the bossy grandma" (because in his limited experience/vocab her constant criticism of me was bossiness) and he pulled faces at the prospect of seeing her.

Just feeling a bit fragile I think. I thought I was further along my 'road to recovery' than I am and it's come as a bit of a blow.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

I can relate to that folkgirl. I realised later in life that my mother was a Narcissis and I too was told I was all of those things. Even now I'd like to please her but know I never shall. As a small child I wasn't allowed to wear pink because I wasn't a pretty child.

You will eventually pick up the pieces. I didn't truly understand it was her and not me until at 12 dd refused to stay at her grandparents because her grandma was so awful and asked me "honestly mum, how did you put up with her". From the mouths of babes.

Just give it time and get to know them. I spent my 20s sabotaging relationships but all was well in the end.

[baskingseals]

Folk, I used to look down on people who liked me, I mean if you liked me you had to be a loser.

Your mother's voice is NOT right, don't let her define you, try and start defining yourself.

[FolkGirl]

Anyway. Thanks for the advice and the perspective.

I'm off now, got a fitness class this morning - all part of the making me the best me I can be and then perhaps I'll attract people who are also the best them they can be!

[FolkGirl]

Lady yes, you're right about taking it slowly. I did have a very intense friendship many years ago with a woman who did turn out to be quite controlling that started very quickly. It was a lot like an abusive relationship and I heard a lot of "I'm only telling you this for your own good/because I care about you".

That's also true Houseseller. I'm working on my physical, mental and emotional health. Perhaps I'm just expecting to run before I can walk.

[FolkGirl]

Yes, married I would be very suspicious in those circumstances too.

Slow and steady, yes you're right. I think I'm just a bit impatient on the wanting to know if I can trust them so is it worth pursuing front.

But I'm also realising that I'm not sure when that I trust him moment would come.

I seem to be ok with trusting/not trusting women. It's men really. But a lot of that is because my mother did a bit of a number on me with the whole "no one's ever going to love/want/fancy you because..." thing. Which means that my starting point is that someone won't be interested, or won't be interested once they know about whichever "because..." reason my mother gave is relevant to them.

Pretty much every aspect of my appearance, character, skills, abilities and personality was given as a reason. I don't think there's anything ok/good or even tolerable about me!

And that's sort of where it comes from. The not trusting other people. Because it's about not trusting them to like me once they get to know me. And so I'm just constantly looking for the sign that they've found out the 'unloveable' thing about me that matters to them. After all, it's only a matter of time. So it's a combination of being lied to and being found out I suppose.

I don't know. I'm just waffling shit now!

[Housesellerihope]

Hopefully those red flags will just fade away as you get to know trustworthy people in time, though. It almost sounds like your problem was being too trusting with someone who didn't deserve it rather than not trusting enough. New people in your life haven't earned your trust yet so you don't really have much reason to trust them but in time if they show they're reliable and honest then hopefully trust will grow.

Also as you are working on yourself and getting healthier, you will naturally attract people at that same level - that is, emotionally healthy people themselves who will be more likely to be trustworthy. We tend to date people at the same level of maturity as ourselves so any work you do on yourself will pay off double when you're in a relationship.