Dh secret savings

[Lotsofswearwords]

My lovely dh has always been a secretive bastard. Keeps all his papers, bank statements either in his office or under lock and key at home.
I tried snooping once and when I finally found the key to his filing cabinet I came across old love letters from his affair during his first marriage. I knew about her, but not about letters. No matter, you might be saying, its all in the past... But of course I'm not allowed same privilege, I have to get rid of such stuff! And being a very open person who doesn't hide things, I thought it better to chuck the lot. No regrets except anger at dh and his double standards.
Snooped today, actually on legit business, looking for online banking details of my and our joint accounts in the hope of being able to do this myself and not be forced to rely on dh. Same folder held details of an account worth about 15,000 pounds... Let me stress its not so much the money, its the secrecy and the actual lying to me that he has no spare cash. We put near equal amounts into joint account for utilities, he earns a lot more than me but pays maintence for dsd, school fees for dss... Any big expenditure we take out small loan together. I don't have a problem with this, I have own ds and even though I still feel like lp raising him, I'm capable and earn a wage.
Please tell me I'm being unreasonable in my anger, that its actually the done thing for married partners to keep loads of money secret.
Sorry for ranting.
When he takes me on trips he pretends to be generous by "paying for everything", but woe betide me if I don't chip in for eating out, entrance fees, etc. I've always been happy to do this, I've never ever been spoiled in my life, its in my nature to pay my way. But now I feel sick, all the time he has been pretending to be hard done by after divorce, high child support costs, etc. and there he is with a small fortune stashed away.
Btw, I'll be getting paid out a slightly lesser amount from an insurance in a few years. Yet dh knows all about this, I was offering to pay for a second bathroom in our house, just to show what's mine is yours!!! I feel such a fool.
Dh is coming home after a week long business trip tomorrow, at least that's what I'm lead to believe... Should I confront him or play dead?

[Oblomov]

I'm with FishFingers.
The more Op tells us, the lies, the forcing her to pay, for things and her not being able to save.... etc etc.
Where exactly is this supposedly loving marriage of which you speak?

[Lotsofswearwords]

I always felt it was somehow rude to ask dh details of his finances.
Only when he seemed to be checking mine very intensely and poor mouthing did I actually ask him if he had financial worries. Were we overspending perhaps? He denied this but something made me press him a bit more and he point blank refused to share any information. I'm a bit over sensitive so the coldness did get to me and I haven't mentioned anything since. Probably what he wanted to achieve anyway.
Thats also the reason I'm trying to get a bit psyched up to act and actually confront him.

I'm pretty sure exw would have loads to tell me, funnily enough I get on well with exh wife2, we can even share a laugh about him now and then, v discreetly of course. Ds v happy about our relaxed views of each other.

I've learned a lot of things about dh recently. Yes, he goes to counseling with me, but its obviously a sham. Have now been thinking perhaps he wanted me to find documentation of his "higher earnings" , were in obvious place for starters. He likes to make out he is superior, another one of my issues... And now he proves that he is in fact superior and has the money to show it. I'm only a common teacher and although we hold same degree, mine is in arts and not science, omg.

I have taught him so much about interacting normally with people, making friends and being nicer in general, but he has two faces: the clumsy little boy who needs looking after, and the cold calculating upstart who'd probably leave me for a more prestigious model, if she'd have him (like i said, he was skint when I met him).
Ok, I sound a bit mad now. Just nervous. Dh will be back in an hour.
Will post again tomorrow.
Thanks for reading this far. I'm so grateful for your input.

[fairiesatthebottomofthegarden]

My h and I had separate accounts all through our marriage, even our home was only in is name, I had no idea what he earnt but he knew exactly what I received in tax credits and child benefit, he paid the bills and I paid for just about everything else and if anyone gave anyone money it was me to him. Have no idea what he actually has financially, now we are going through divorce:(

[tribpot]

I find it staggering that he expects to be able to examine your finances in detail - and comment on them - and not so much as share his own.

Separate finances is one thing, that's just taking the piss. He's draining you of cash; why aren't the finances set up so you each pay in a share of the month bills proportionate to how much you earn, rather than 50:50? This is inherently unfair on the lower earning partner. I don't think you are being used 'in a very subtle way', OP.

Snorbs asked a very relevant question above:
Are these counselling sessions where you both get equal time to raise issues and have them discussed and resolved, or is it more just him raising a seemingly endless list of issues he has with you?

[AnyFucker]

I really don't like the sound of your husband, OP.

I sense you working up a head of steam about these issues, which is good, but only if you take positive action and not just have a rant but do fuck-all. I would stop the joint counselling, for a start. Anyone who attends sessions while hiding a 15k account appropriated via deceit is not someone I would be trusting with my own innermost thoughts.

get some individual counselling, love, and explore why you seem to have rolled over about rather a lot of stuff that only now you are waking up to as being a rather large mistake

[Lotsofswearwords]

Fairies, that was a bit déjà vu... I regularly use your "nickname" during a lighthearted conversation about our garden. Is it that we are somewhat detached from ordinary life and it takes us some time to cop on to what is happening in RL? Would definitely explain a lot...

Anyfucker, you sound so sensible and strong and yes, I did plan to work up steam for a show down. But I'm weak and so I've decided to go for a moment when I'm feeling calm and collected instead.

And I'm still contemplating some other replies saying that basically his money is none of my business. But that just depresses me. That means we are flatmates and I need to look elsewhere for emotional intimacy. That's just my gut reaction. Had the same with dh1, I tried being civilized and looking for acknowledgment at work instead. But I get that anyway and its just not as important to me as a functional relationship at home. So I left him.

I have been moping since dh got home, I'm so pathetic. I keep hoping he will say something to clear it up before I mention it. I know that's ridiculous.

How's this for a coincidence though: I thought I'd wait for an opportune moment and there it was, we watched the third season start of Damages and it dealt with a Wall Street type who had hidden away money for his family. Dh actually said it was worth contemplating stealing money for the family and going to prison yourself . I was so struck dumb I immediately backed down from any conversation and have been depressed ever since. Dh has been v supportive and hands on with housework because he thinks I'm being menopausal... (Another real issue atm, but nothing serious).

[Apocalypto]

And what a stupid response paperlantern.

Here's a thought experiment for you.

You have £5000 stashed that your DH finds out about.

So he immediately blows £5000 on poker on the joint credit card. When the credit card DD goes through there will now not be enough to pay the mortgage, other bills, etc.

1/ Do you use your stash to keep the family solvent?
2/ Did having the cash in a separate account protect it?
3/ If he didn't even know it existed, would you still have your £5000?

[AnyFucker]

OP, you really need to talk to your husband

Going "quiet" on him (or in other words, if we were being truthful here, being passive aggressive) is not going to help.

Communication between you two seems appalling, I can see why you went for joint counselling. But if you still feel unable to be honest with your H (despite knowing he is lying and manipulating you) then we are nudging towards an emotionally abusive relationship here.

Get some individual counselling, love. Build your self esteem without reference to him. You should be able to tackle this, and the fact that you seem to be getting further away from doing that despite everything that has been said here is a worry.

[HappyMummyOfOne]

"maybe i should make him pay for sex" What a vulgar thought.

Paying 50/50 on bills is what lots of couples do so i see nothing wrong in that. Likewise i wouldnt see one owning a property abroad as anything other than a holiday home to take friends or family rather than be used or being taken advantage of. Just dont go if it makes you feel like that.

Im on the fence re the savings. Women are always encouraged to have a secret savings account in case anything goes wrong so it should also apply to men if we are to be equal re things. If you agreed to a 50/50 split on bills then any left over is surely seen as personal spending money to be used or saved by the person. If his children dont live full time with him perhaps he feels the need to ensure he plays a big part in their life financially and its a cushion should he need it for their fees etc.

Even though we have joint finances as DH likes the set up, i dont subscribe to the old fashioned view that the man supports everyone purely because he is male.

The unfair element i can see is that he checks yours but then again you easily found his so he wasnt exactly hiding them or you would not have seen them.

[Lotsofswearwords]

The passive aggressive sounds about right.
I was actually thinking paper lantern's advice quite good, I.e. I'd build up my own stash and keep it quiet. I know I could do it if I put my mind to it. But then I'd be thinking of nothing else... And I do want a life!
No, confrontation is best. Ds is meeting friends soon so we have the afternoon to ourselves (will be out with dsc and ds in the evening to celebrate dh birthday belatedly. Had thought of waiting till tomorrow because of it, but my resolve would disappear...).
anyfucker thanks for the virtual kick up the backside! It's amazing how a middle aged woman can still be so timid! Thought I'd seen it all after giving birth, but there's always more out there to deal with. Life, I guess.

[Lotsofswearwords]

Ps
Happymummy, hope you stay happy and never get to feel desperate or used.

[HappyMummyOfOne]

Sorry lotsof, i just dont agree you are being used. You both pay 50/50 towards your shared living costs. How is that being used? If anything, your DS is being jointly supported house wise where as his children live elsewhere so only benefit on stays over.

[claudedebussy]

kick arse!
all is clearly not well in your household. sounds to me like you don't trust him.

[Inthequietcoach]

Oh lots, this was one of the many, many issues in my marriage - STBXH saved a few hundred pounds a month whilst I ran an overdraft. His contribution was to pay half the childcare costs. I kind of bought it, as he had high commuting costs, but actually when I stopped and added up everything I paid for, it came to more. There were things like me not being able to afford to get the heating fixed, or driving around with the car needing fixed, and although I did ask him to provide a spreadsheet of monies, this was never forthcoming. The straw that broke the camel's back, financially speaking, was when I saw his current account advice slip (current account, before you even get to savings) and there were several thousand pounds in the bank, and I was overdrawn. And overdrawn paying for household goods, and he knew that.

If you feel used, you probably are being used.

[paperlantern]

Apocolypto - your thought experiment. TBH it would not happen to me in the way you are proposing

I would never ever have a joint account and I absolutely would never have a joint credit card (not keen on the prospect of credit cards full stop). It also the reason I wouldn't marry again as credit cards and marriage can be a very bad combination, you have no right to get any information on a spouse's credit card but you can end up responsible for the balance.

I would never have savings that I would not advice a partner I had. If it was agreed the amount was irrelevant I wouldn't worry beyond that.

If someone squandered 5K on gambling chips whatever the outcome I would be leaving. As I wouldn't be in a joint credit card EVER it would be his problem, not mine.

[MariaLuna]

looking for online banking details of my and our joint accounts in the hope of being able to do this myself and not be forced to rely on dh.

Time to take control of your own financial education.

That way you have your own future in your own hands without coming across nasty surprises that one in the relationship has been squirreling money away secretly.

I'm glad you found out anyway. Knowledge is power.

Obviously, joint counselling is not applicable where one partner is hiding such fundamental secrets.

His controlling behaviour towards you is creepy too.

[Lotsofswearwords]

Nasty surprise is the key phrase I think.
If all else were well in our marriage I might have thought, great! Dh is saving for second bathroom/ new fence... Whatever.
But as it is it was another blow.
Having read so many threads on cheaters and the chances partners give them to come clean, I did the same.
I told dh I was v upset with him for treating me like a minion, disrespecting my right to be at least informed/ consulted as his partner in all family matters.
He cleverly named many areas in our lives, like parenting, house maintenance,holidays, etc. where he felt we were on the same page, and then acted baffled.
He knows damn he told me he was not willing to show me his bank balance some months back (when his penny pinching made me ask if he was suffering financially) and he showed me a spreadsheet instead. I let it go as i figured it sounded about right, but about another third of his income is in the form of regular bonuses, which I had obviously forgotten about. And which explain the size of the stash. But this amount originated 2 years ago. There could easily be another one...
I told him if he doesn't come clean voluntarily I won't be able to trust him anymore and if he forces me to say precisely what's upsetting me that's just evading the overall habit of excluding me (our other issues centered around him excluding me from his "inner circle" of himself and dsc.
here he has compromised and is making clear efforts to maintain a balance, first dsd having to relinquish role of mini wife, dss now realizing he's no longer dh bff, couple counselor v supportive here).
He has until Friday, our next counseling session. Hope counselor can mediate.

[paperlantern]

oh the spreadsheet thing is horribly familiar. ex did the most fabulous spreadsheets. don't get me wrong they are really useful for budgeting, but if you don't actually know your family income, they are totally meaningless.

[ageofgrandillusion]

OP your husband sounds like he has very little respect for you. I'm getting pictures of an alan partridge type figure, socially awkward, slightly paranoid and deeply mistrustful of the world since his first wife woke up to what a loser he was. I'd seriously consider jumping ship - with your 7.5k, of course. Apart from stress, I'm really not sure what you are getting out of this relationship - unless he is fantastic in bed maybe, although something tells me that this is not the case.

[Lotsofswearwords]

Paperlantern, seems we have a lot in common. Dh can be so wonderful, I just don't understand why he's sabotaging our relationship. It's like he's a bit mad, just has this massive blind spot and absolutely refuses to budge an inch. He keeps giving me these weird pained looks when were together and I'm visibly upset/detached/being polite... He seems to be hoping I won't address the money imbalance issue and will back off because he's "so nice" to me...

Ageofgrandillusion, yes, it's stressful. I gave him until Friday to come clean. Each day feels heavier than the last. At least I know for sure now its not something ill forgive and forget in a hurry. This seriously needs to be resolved fairly. Counseling at least gives me the neutral territory to talk.

[Lotsofswearwords]

Ok, we had it out last night. I did feel pressured into saying exactly what was bothering me, but as I was only making veiled references (I told him I was actually afraid to hear the truth was worse than I imagined) he finally came clean (well, not so much clean as shop soiled).
I was a bit taken aback when he asked me if I thought he was embezzling money from me (because he was) and then gave me some weird stories that were half truths because he needs to save face now.
He promised to give me all the paper work I asked for and wants to make amends.

We need a second bathroom, he could easily fund that himself.
I would love him to do that and forgive and forget and get on with our marriage. I'm going to ask counselor the same, should we not have decided by Friday. This would benefit the whole family greatly (and dsd 's visits could be more spontaneous).
Thanks everybody for reading and advice given

[overitalready]

lots - i dont understand your post.

he came clean? but you only got half truths? so he didnt come clean? so whats the money for? why was it a secret?

all is ok if you get the 2nd bathroom?

[MysteriousHamster]

Was he embezzling money from you?!

[Lotsofswearwords]

Sorry for rambling earlier.

I'm still reeling from the shock that he actually used the words 'embezzle' and I think 'fraud.' I'd never have said that (just called it a secret stash), but maybe he is actually feeling guilty.
I just can't accept the truth, I wanted him to have a really good excuse and I'm paralyzed that I was right.

Sorry for being dramatic, obviously there is no emergency. I won't agree to any suggestions to make amends before our counseling session on Friday. Don't know though what to ask of him to able to trust him again. Bank statements? We've been married 3 1/2years.
I was only going to talk about the bonuses he squirreled away. But the first thing he mentioned was money apparently his parents gave him when we got together (exit fund?). I could be wrong , but he may be trying to disguise his stash as a gift, which would not be any of my business. I'm only trying to get clarity about his income since we got married.