help me work out a Christmas question please

[chocoreturns]

Ok, this is going to be controversial. For those who haven't seen the back story, the relevant bits are:

XH cheated on me while I was pg with DS2. He spent Christmas that year (while DS1 was only 16mo) shagging his OW in the marital bed, and chose not to spend the holiday with either me or his son. I didn't know about OW at that point, I spent Christmas with my family due to his appalling behaviour in general. He was invited to come, and said that 'it didn't matter' if he saw our DS1 on Christmas day, and Boxing day was just as good as far as he was concerned.

When I discovered OW I LTB. He subsequently declared her the love of his life, and now lives with her. No problem - I am glad he's not around, he's a twunt.

Last year, our DS2's first Christmas, he did not ask to see him at all. He stuck to his usual access pattern of eow, which meant that he saw our boys on the 15th Dec and then the 29th. He went on holiday to Egypt with OW instead. I skyped him with DS1 on Christmas day, and he didn't even ask to see DS2 or whether he was ok. He made no attempt to call the boys, sent no presents etc. Told me it 'wasn't worth' driving to see them over Christmas itself (he lived 3 hours away at that point).

Anyway, he now wants to have the boys for Christmas this year as he thinks it's 'his turn'.

My objections are:

• He doesn't celebrate Christmas. It's irrelevant to him whether he sees them on Christmas day and he has said so explicitly more than once
  
• My family are Christian and do celebrate Christmas, I take the boys to church and he knows about this and supports it. I have always been very clear that this is a religious festival not a commercial one and they should grow up knowing the difference. He has always agreed with me on this point, until now.
  
• He has chosen not to see them at Christmas for the last two years due to having more selfish things to do. This year his OW is installed at his house so they think it would be 'fun' to have the boys and play at happy families because they don't have illicit shagging or 5*holidays planned instead. IF they had more money or something better to do, it would not have come up.
  
• I think he's a shit. (Probably not relevant but I do.)
  

So WWYD? say yes, have them for Christmas knowing that a) they won't do anything special for it, and b) it's 99% about point scoring on his part and nothing to do with what is right for the kids...

Or say no, not this year. Have them on Boxing Day instead because I can't reschedule Church etc (which the boys will be involved in, have little parts in plays etc if they go) but he can feed them a second dinner any time and give them presents on Boxing Day and it won't make any difference And he also says it makes no difference to him, unless someone else is listening who he needs to sound like a 'good dad' to.

I don't think at their age (1 and 3) the boys would care about spending Christmas with him. They only see him 4 days a month, 9-5 as it is. Which is entirely his choice.

Am I being unreasonable?

[BonzoDooDah]

I'd tell him to fuck-the-fuck off!

Say as per the norm set up by him the children will be spending Christmas with you. He can skype them or whatever and see them Boxing Day. IF he really wants to see them on Christmas Day suggest a couple of hours after all your church stuff is done and your big meal is done too. (Not that he is likely to get off his arse if he lives that far away).

If I was your child and saw him that little I'd be devastated to be leaving my mum on Christmas Day. I wouldn't want to go.

Him and OW can feck off and have their own kids if they want to start playing "happy families" now. I'd think your DC would want to stay with you anyway on Christmas Day as they do see you as the main carer and do have things to do on the day with you.

If you ex decides to try and get access via the courts you can explain his previous attitude (no presents, not even talking on Skype to little one etc etc) and the residency arrangements and say you have offered a couple of hours. They'd go with you.

[RootinTootin]

Is he not religious or just a different religion? I haven't met a single atheist who doesn't celebrate Christmas.

[chocoreturns]

For our whole relationship he described himself a 'militant atheist' - he didn't want presents for himself either, when I say he doesn't celebrate Christmas I mean it, he literally doesn't celebrate it. If this has changed because OW wants to celebrate it I see absolutely no reason for the kids to have to rock up and play nice for her benefit either!

We have discussed religion at length. The children will not be baptised or confirmed or given any religious education. They do need to know and understand about Christianity for them to be able to make an informed decision as adults about whether they want to participate in this faith or not. Part of having choice, is learning about what the choice is.

Now on the one hand you could use that as an argument for alternating Christmas with no Christmas. But if their dad can essentially give them an 'atheist' Christmas every year, why shouldn't they get to experience a religious one every year as well?

[RootinTootin]

Slightly off topic but the only thing they are getting from their parents is Christianity or nothing. I fear your children are going to get very confused.

That said a Christmas of nothing is just as valid as a Christianity based Christmas. To truly be able to make a choice surely they need to experience both?

[RootinTootin]

I will say anyone who describes themselves as militant anything is usually a cock.

[JaceyBee]

I can sympathise with your position but I think maybe he should be allowed to have them on Xmas day. He is their father and you have had them the last two. I'm sure the kids won't be bothered about missing church/the religious element and will have a fun day with him, even if they do things differently to your family.

Is the the lack of religious significance that bothers you or the fact that they will be playing 'happy families' with his new gf? Because actually surely it's preferable that she wants them around and to be involved than if she was creating barriers to them seeing their dad?

I'm sure he is indeed a twunt but I still think its better that he's taking an interest and wants to see them for their benefit.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

Don't let them have them on Christmas Day. Why should you and your loving supportive family have to miss out on something very special to you, just so this twunt who has never been arsed before - (and once the OW is pregnant probably won't ever again) - gets to play.

Forget the religious element. It's nothing to do with that. The point is, he doesn't parent when they are sick etc. He only wants to parent when he feels like it.

I think he is also trying to wind you up. Things have been a bit quiet for a couple of weeks, haven't they? Him and the OW need a bit of drama.

Wishing you luck Choco.

[buildingmycorestrength]

choco I don't know your back story, but I wonder if it would be perfectly reasonable to say that you will discuss this in September and don't let it occupy any of your mental space until then.

Then you have time to see whether it is a deep seated issue for him or a passing whim.

Obviously I am already worrying about Christmas arrangements myself so am in no position to give advice.

[forgetmenots]

This isn't really about religion though.

It's about an absent, couldn't give a shit 'father' who now wants to play the big guy and have Christmas because all of a sudden for whatever reason he had realised it's significant in one way or another.

Yadnbu.

[LifeSavedbyLego]

FWIW my view is that if the access arrangement is 50/50 or there abouts then the major holiday and events should be shared.

However through his own personal choice he barely sees them. He can therefore fuck off he wants them for Christmas.

I also think (based on previsious threads) he is not worth the shit on your shoe.

[Sugarice]

I've followed your other threads and absolutely you should keep them with you and your family on Christmas Day.

He's an massive twat and so is Turtlehead if she's pulling a sad face and wants your ds's to play happy families on Christmas Day, no doubt they would be texting you photographs of said 'happy families'

Tell him he can pick the boys up on Boxing Day.

[pigsDOfly]

Clearly some people are not reading what the OP has written.

How anyone could think it reasonable for this man who shows little interest in his children and rarely sees them, because that's how he wants it, to suddenly declare he wants to have his children on a day in the year that he couldn't give a damn about but is very special to the OP.

There's no question imo. Give it no further consideration Choco. Keep your children with you on Christmas day.

[Halfling]

Tell your XH to fuck off. He is a bastard of the highest order and just wants to play happy families.

Since he is an atheist, ask him if he will be happy to spend some other non-religious celebration (say New Year's Eve) with the DC. I am pretty sure he wriggle his way out of it.

[melbie]

Normally I would say division of Christmas etc needs to be equal between separated parents. But in this case he has shown no interest up until now so can hardly suddenly claim to be Dad of the year. Can you say he can have Boxing Day this year and Christmas Day next year (IF he steps up to the parenting thing a bit more over the next 12 months and stops being a twat)

[YellowTulips]

I am not sure you can deny him Christmas access forever, but I fully sympathise with the fact that this is about him not the kids.

It's not about "turns" in his case is it, it's about his priorities and he has demonstrated in the past that Christmas with the kids isn't one for him when he has a better offer on the table. For you however is a very important event.

I would probably look to offer a compromise to test his resolve somewhat (though not sure how practical this is in terms of travel for you).

What about you have the children Christmas Eve and for church/lunch on Christmas Day and he collects them at 5pm and has the rest of the day and Boxing Day with him.

If he really wants it that much he can wait for a Christmas drink until he has picked up the children and start his festivities in the evening. I doubt he will do this - but then you have your answer about his real priorities and you have offered a very reasonable compromise - especially in the context of the last 2 years.

[Allalonenow]

Hello Choco, it sounds to me as though he is doing this just to get a reaction from you.

Tell him that you will discuss it nearer the time.

I don't think he should have the children on Christmas day, you do all the work of caring for them, and should have this special day with them. Nor would I be inviting him into your home to watch presents being opened, he has chosen to leave that part of his life behind, that is his loss.

Don't be too hasty in setting plans in stone for future years, who knows what you might like to do when the children are a little older, but you will be hampered if you have agreed to "every year" plans with him. Keep things flexible for the benefit of yourself and your children.

I hope all is going well for you in other aspects of your life, I've often wondered how you were getting on.

[Stepmooster]

My DH has not had his DSS for xmas or his birthday for 5 years. His ex refuses, as she gets too upset without him. BTW it was her who did the cheating and not my DH. DH just let it slide for a peaceful life, so that his son doesn't see his paretns arguing. Last year, DSS wrote a heart breaking letter to his mum and dad asking if he could spend xmas with his dad. And no he didn't get to spend Xmas with his dad, and DH has gone to a solicitor and is trying to formalise an agreement with his ex whereby they alternate xmas and birthdays between them. DH did not coach his son to write that letter, if you are happy to receive such letters from your kids in the future by all means stop them from seeing them.

Your ex may have been a d*ckhead and may still be one, but he is your kids father. You cannot change that. Don't punish your kids. Most people I know christian or not, think Christmas should be all about the kids. Don't use your kids to punish your ex. It never works out well.

[YellowTulips]

Sorry, meant to add, if he doesn't go for that then he can F off and have them only on Boxing Day AND New Years Eve

[Concreteblonde]

I would invite him to stick a holly bush where the sun don't shine.
I am in exactly the same position. The man.formerly known as the grinch has spent the last 2 years fucking the OW. He didn't even acknowledge my suggestion last year that he took the kids out on Christmas afternoon.
Now the OW has spawned he has decreed that it's 'his'turn to have the children this year. DD Has already made her feelings very clear.
Dtick to your guns. Your Ex is a dick.

[YellowTulips]

Step - I didn't perceive Chocco trying to punish anyone.

Actually I felt the issue is more about the Ex NOT willing to commit to a sustainable approach to Christmas because it really depends on the best offer he has on the table...

It feels like a very different situation to that which you and your DH are in.

The kids aren't asking to be with their father and up until now he has shown zero interest in Christmas.

As I said in my first post, I think there will have to be compromise at some point, but my guess in this case is that if it puts Choccos Ex out even a bit, he won't go for it - because it's not about having the kids and being a good Dad, it's about whats the best way to enjoy Christmas for him, when he hasn't actually got other more exciting options to explore.

[themidwife]

One suggestion? (Feel free to disagree & what's more I don't think he deserves anything) but from your point of view of some relaxation after a busy day - how about he collects them at 5pm & has them overnight until boxing day at 5pm. They will have presents if he bothers & Christmas tea with their Dad and that stupid trollop & you can put your feet up, drink port & eat cheese & have a lovely lie in. Note the lack of what's in it for him in this scenario? It's about the benefit for you & the boys. Oh & he has to collect & return the boys not you!!! He will remain sober!! What do you think?

[DistanceCall]

It doesn't matter what his intentions are or whether he celebrates Christmas or no. It's a holiday (culturally, not only for Christians), and he is entitled to have the children for that holiday. They are also his children, and half of their cultural identity (for the time being) comes from him.

And to be honest, if he notices that this riles you up so much, he will persist.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

So for the past two years he hasn't been arsed to have any involvement with the kids over that holiday, but this year he has decided he wants them. It is all about his entitlement isn't it?

[RootinTootin]

That's pretty much how I see it, as usual all the emotive language is getting in the way. Trollops, happy families etc etc.

[Xales]

My ex has just had DS two Christmases in a row. Two years ago it was 'his turn' and then in the January they lost his step mother (ex's) and it looked like his dad was at risk as he had been in and out of hospital over the year. So I offered just in case it was the last Christmas with dad/granddad.

I did that because ex is a loving hands on dad.

Yor ex is nothing like a loving caring dad. I think you should simply say no (dressed up nicely) and then refuse to engage any further on the subject.