Not on the same page as DH wrt DD

[chattychattyboomba]

Dh and I have disagreed lately when it comes to handling our toddler.
Today in the car DD got all whiney asking for her dummy. We have agreed she can only have it at sleep time now which she understands but sometimes she gets bored and gets the idea in her head and that's it. She then upped the anti. I suggested DH and I ignore it after initial attempts to explain/console resulted in howling. DH continued to bark 'stop crying! that's enough!' 3 times he told her to 'stop being naughty!'
And made a loud clapping noise with his hands (grrr!!)
When i suggested this he said (in an aggressive way) 'i am dealing with it!' I explained why i ignore it (because i recognise the cry and it is usually just tiredness and she will forget why she is crying and give up in a minute, but if he tells her to stop like that this will upset her and we will get round 2)...which is exactly what happened...and round 3, and 4 complete with hyperventilating cry...
I couldn't even take her out of her carseat to give her a cuddle as we were driving
He made out all defensively that I was being unfair that i was not allowing him to discipline his own daughter. I said that's not true, I am just discussing a solution with you as her parents and making suggestions based on what i have experienced in hope that we can come to a mutual agreement. I was hoping for a discussion, not a knee jerk reaction and aggressive/defensive response. I wish he would respect that as her mother who spends all day every day with her, I know a thing or two about her personality and I might have some valuable insight. Instead he just immediately shuts me down if i even suggest that perhaps he tried a different tact with DD- such as instead of saying 'don't be naughty!' maybe 'that behaviour is naughty' would be more enabling for her to change that behaviour (big difference in my opinion). Labelling a child as naughty IMO just suggests that is who they are and that can have a profound affect on their self worth. He wouldn't even let me explain my reasons for this. Just cut me off and rolled his eyes.
I have learnt to be really diplomatic when approaching any topic. I don't put him down or tell him he's wrong. I usually start by saying 'hey honey, did you notice that when you reacted like that her crying got louder? I think maybe it might be worth trying x,y and z what don't you think?'
This is usually followed by either complete silence or 'are you serious? Just shush!' Or 'enough Chatty, i think i know what i'm doing here!' (total shut down).

Does anyone else hit these brick walls when it comes to co-parenting? How do you get your point to be heard let alone respected? DH is so defensive about his parenting skills, but he is just so strict! He hasn't ever smacked DD. he adores her but he isn't very gracious or sensitive towards how she might be feeling or the reasons for her behaviour. Makes me sad for DD.
He is also strict with our dogs and i do not agree with how he disciplines them but if i say anything he explodes.
Sorry long post- any suggestions (besides telling me DH is an asshole) welcome.

[Sh1ney]

Just read your op

Massively over thinking this. No courses or books required unless either of you are pretty useless or unsure about how to parent

[PoppyField]

Good luck Chatty. I have been there. Wise words from Attila - you may want to mend someone, but sometimes it is just impossible. Be very careful with yourself and think about what it demonstrates to your DD.

I saw a brilliant encapsulation of this on a recent thread about a similar DH : 'I want co-operation and he just wants control". Basically if you are with someone who wants control, then you're never going to get 'co-operative' parenting.

Have you ever had therapy just on your own? I have found it helpful in a similar situation. Sometimes it is handy having a professional person helping you get your head straight, because living with someone like this does mess with your head. I know!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Your DD is not the glue that binds the two of you together however.
Do not stay with your H solely for her sake because doing that also teaches her damaging lessons about relationships. It also shows her that the only reason her parents stayed together was because of her - a terrible responsibility to give a child actually and one she won't thank you for giving her. It may not be an option to your mind now but do not close off the idea of walking away completely.

Be very careful too with regards to wanting to persevere (wanting to persevere is probably what you did previously); give yourself a set time limit with regards to your H and stick to it to the letter. Actions speak louder than words. He needs to show you that he is just as bothered as you are about making this work; what he is doing currently is clearly not that at all.

Re your comment:-
"Hmmm you are right attila...i tried to do this with ex (alcoholic whose father committed suicide)... Needless to say it grew tiresome. I see a pattern emerging. When will i learn?"

When you realise fully why you have acted and continue to act as you have done. You need to reign in the rescuer/saviour tendencies you have; they came from somewhere and you need to get to the heart of why you have these at all. You learnt that perhaps in your own childhood by seeing examples of it.

[chattychattyboomba]

I don't think so either Oopla but unfortunately they are more common than they should be. In an ideal world no one would react hastily, be overly sensitive, say harsh words, disagree, and everyone would empathise and you would all be mature and understanding and put your partner first... but 2 different people with different ideas who feel they both have valid points and are not being heard/agreed with...that's a recipe for a power struggle.

[Oopla]

I don't think power struggles in a relationship is healthy or normal.

[chattychattyboomba]

Thanks Poppy, that was really kind words. That's the pickle with MN, you can only give a piece if the puzzle so I am not expecting a great deal of insight here..you have only heard my half of the story. That being said I am really grateful for some of these responses as it has kind of validated a lot of the feelings about his behaviour that I had already suspected are not right an also my reaction to this being natural. I won't be second guessing myself as much anymore.

I am giving this my best shot for the sake of DD (because believe me- it would not be the case if there wasn't another little person's wellbeing to consider). It's a lot easier to be selfish when it's only your heart that will break...Everything I do, I do for her and I don't feel walking away is an option in this case...

DD and DH have a very close relationship- total daddy's girl. I don't think separating them at this stage would be a better alternative. The good outweighs the bad as it stands- i just need to persevere.

[PoppyField]

Yeah sorry if i sounded a bit jaded - I am a bit jaded! But for you the fact remains that he doesn't seem to be responding to your needs and to your valid opinions as his partner. I don't think you're sounding victim-y at all. I think you sound confused about how he can be like this. You are obviously trying to work it out in a considered and humane way.

The question is how exactly will he change? I think you sound very empathetic, very compassionate for the difficulties and/or malign influences in his upbringing. Of course you want to analyse all the factors that have made him what he is. And you are still trying to reach him because underdeath all that is an innocent, pained little boy perhaps and you feel sorrow and empathy for him. All that may be true, but why does that mean he has to treat you badly? How will this resolve itself?

His upbringing is not be his fault, but he is inflicting it on you and your daughter. Perhaps he could get some therapy on his own... maybe that would help. My guess is that he would refuse because the problem is you always disagreeing with him!

You will continue to hit brick walls, be cut off and shut down. It is just a question of how you manage with your voice getting progressively smaller and smaller. And how do you feel about your daughter witnessing this as a pattern for male/female relationships? Not good, I'm sure. You sound like a great mother. You would not be so concerned otherwise.

[chattychattyboomba]

Hmmm you are right attila...i tried to do this with ex (alcoholic whose father committed suicide)... Needless to say it grew tiresome. I see a pattern emerging. When will i learn?
Meanwhile, i'm married to the man in question and we have a child together. Not exactly something you easily walk away from so... Bit of a dilemma.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"He was brought up in a VERY strict and old fashioned household. His father was strict also, and i have seen glimpses of regret and sadness in DH wrt his upbringing- hence why i am still trying to reach him as I KNOW he has a big heart, but just finds this is the easiest way to be as that's the only way he was taught.
So there you have it...
A bit of narcissism mixed with his own childhood insecurities..."

Narcissism in itself is bad news.

He certainly is a product of his upbringing and that has brought with it its own lot of damage. Trying to reach such a person is an exercise in futility; he has to want to make changes for his own self and you cannot or should not either do that for him.

Look at your own behaviour here; why do you want to reach him?

Small wonder too that counselling was not successful; he was not willing to listen then either. Its either his way or no way as far as he is concerned. This is not about communication at all as you can communicate, he however chooses not to listen. Such men do not change. This is about power and control, there is a massive power imbalance here.

[chattychattyboomba]

Hey Poppy...hmmm as much as i would love to jump on the bandwagon here and paint him as a bully (because i am angry with him) i want to try and retain a bit of perspective if you see what i mean? It's very easy for me to come on here and list all of his nasty qualities but i am by no means a victim (i feel). I can hold my own in a debate and that's why i am so baffled by anyone's behaviour when they just shut me down... Perhaps this is it- perhaps he feels that i will win because i have the ability to be objective and this is his only way of him winning... Like a little kid in an argument 'lalala! I'm not listening!' Lol

I agree i feel i have used good communication with this. Yes he may be a black and white person as earlier suggested but when it comes to parenting, a very sensitive topic, not many people are able to remain black and white. It feels personal, there for i try to be as tactful as possible- which usually results in me walking around on egg shells. He acts like a hormonal teenager at times.
A bit of background info here (sorry for drip feeding)
He is the much loved and prayed for 'son of a preacher man' (his dad is a minister). His parents had 4 children before him, 3 girls and 1 boy. One of the girls and their only boy died as infants. Enter DH- 'God's gift to man kind' and you might understand a bit about his golden child syndrome.
He was brought up in a VERY strict and old fashioned household. His father was strict also, and i have seen glimpses of regret and sadness in DH wrt his upbringing- hence why i am still trying to reach him as I KNOW he has a big heart, but just finds this is the easiest way to be as that's the only way he was taught.
So there you have it...
A bit of narcissism mixed with his own childhood insecurities...

[PoppyField]

Hi Chatty,
I'm reading your thread and thinking that your H is not adapting or changing his behaviour in any way and he has no incentive to. This is because he wants you running around him emotionally and worrying about whether you are being 'diplomatic' enough. He can give you a few treats and lie-ins to keep you thinking he's lovely really and then have you on tenterhooks the rest of the time, worrying about whether he is going to lose his temper with you/DD/dogs/whatever.

You seem to be living under the constant threat of that, whether or not it actually materialises, and that sounds quite uncomfortable. I agree with Swish that this is not how you get your point across. This is not a problem with your way of communicating. You have communicated quite clearly how you would like to discuss your joint parenting, how you would like to reach a consensus and then follow through calmly and consistently. There is no communication problem here! You have communicated and he has refused to listen. He says he's listening - he is going through the motions - but actually he is refusing to take any notice. He is ignoring you because he does not want to change and he likes things just as they are. How about that? If he wanted change he would have changed. Have you considered that he 'shuts you down' because that's how he just how he likes it.

Another worrying tendency is that he is happy to show aggression to your DD or to show aggression to you in front of your daughter. I bet you really don't like that...no caring person would...so he has got your arm up your back there as well. He forces you to try to back down when he starts to kick up because he knows you can't bear him being vicious in front of your DD. He is prepared to be nasty to your DD in order to keep you in line. He is an angry, controlling bully and whatever other qualities he displays, he cannot be a nice person while prepared to exert this nasty control over his family. What would you think of anyone else who was prepared to be cruel to his wife or daughter in order to get his own way?

[Dollylucy]

Sounds very much like my dh, and I'm just starting to figure out how to leave him, sorry

[bountyicecream]

chatty I'm sorry but I have to say that sounds like a classic exchange between me and my H. His discipline was always correct, if I disagreed with him then I was undermining him. So basically it was his way or the high way. When I looked at it our relationship was totally wrong (thanks MN for showing me that) and I can now see that he is emotionally abusive to me and also to our DD occasionally. For example she is 'not allowed' to cry (it is 'babyish' she's 2 ) and is 'naughty' for having a tantrum (again - she's 2). In other words she is not allowed to express herself in a way that he does not approve of.

I am in the process of leaving him. Our parenting styles are too different. I cannot sit and watch him discipline her his way, and he will never, ever change to become more like my way, or even meet in the middle. Every day is a constant battle.

Oh and he is over-harsh with our dog too.

[BabiesAreLikeBuses]

Totally agree that you should leave it in heat of moment, also he sounds like a black and white sort of guy who you need to be direct with, not give examples of articles you have read as he will prob react better to the truth. Toddlers are tough egocentric beings - two styles of parenting will be confusing, i may point out that as she gets older his style may make her feel insecure... Have a wilful 5 yo girl who after recent calm discipline told me she agreed with me that she didnt deserve treat. Takes monumental effort to ignore the wailing though, i understand how he gets irritated!

[pointythings]

It's really difficult. My DH was brought up in a very 1950s American disciplinarian style. I was brought up strictly by modern standards, but much more relaxed. Conflict started when we had DD2 - DH couldn't see that DD1 needed moreof him rather than less of him and was raelly harsh with DD1. It nearly broke us up.

What worked for him was him deciding he was going to leave the disciplining to me (and he did it in a pretty damn sulky way too!) but then he saw that my way actually worked. I'm strict about boundaries, but I don' shout, I don't snap, I don't get in their faces. Calm mummy, calm children. When he saw it worked, he really worked hard to adapt his own style.

For my part, I made a real effort not to criticise his parenting in the heat of the moment but to raise it afterwards (this is HARD!). Discussing events afterwards and agreeing on a strategy really helped. These days there are times when I'm on the verge of losing it and am unreasonable with the girls (teenage daughter plus perimenopause not helping) and he is the one who cools it down. He sounds like he's worth hanging on to. I hope you can make it work between you.

[chattychattyboomba]

Yes creature... It was horrible. But i make no excuses. I told him it was wrong and (this will sound like an excuse) but he didn't say it to her- more to me about her...
Anyway wrt being direct that's exactly what i did, i just didn't want to drip feed too much hence the x,y,z abbreviation on here. I said specifically 'did you see how she got louder when you told her off?'

[CreatureRetorts]

Your DH sounds lovely.

Be specific - none of this "I was reading an article x/y/z" roundabout stuff.

Tell him when he didn't ignore dd, she got more upset. If he'd ignored her, she would have been fine. Keep it specific. TBH I think you have to spell it out clearly. Tell him how it affects your dd, tell him how it affects you.

As for calling her a little shit. Words fail me.

You're making excuses for him.

[chattychattyboomba]

Actually a lot... But in other ways. He organises spontaneous and thoughtful surprises. He let's me have a lay in every second day and shares a lot of the housework/cooking (i'm a SAHM) he is a hard working business owner and has really adapted to lifestyle changes of having a family by being less selfish when it comes to social life, pitching in etc...he is more of a romantic than I am. He might be moody/reactive but he is a good man deep down.

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

How much effort would you say your DH is putting into making your marriage work...?

[chattychattyboomba]

Yes... Can lead a stubborn mule horse to water but can't make them drink.
Well... If we all took that mantra when it comes to making a marriage work we would all be divorced. Lol
Sometimes i feel like i am trying more- i'm sure he feels the same though so, trying another angle until i have run out of ideas. Two sides to every story i suppose.

[SwishSwoshSwoosh]

What I mean is, it isn't about how you tell him, if he doesn't want to listen he wont.

[chattychattyboomba]

I don't think our relationship is too dissimilar from others (or is it?!)
I think there may be a bit of a power struggle going on...
I would just like to know how other people communicate effectively with stubborn people. How do i make him OBEY OBEY OBEY! listen

[chattychattyboomba]

What do you mean swish?

[SwishSwoshSwoosh]

I don't think this is about how you get your point across.

[chattychattyboomba]

No mumsyblouse- you have a point. I suppose he can be a little bit if a bully. And equally i suppose maybe some of my suggestions would be deemed irritating especially to someone who didn't agree but i think they are justified considering DD's behaviour not responding well to shouting or hasty discipline (eg naughty step without sufficient warning or explanation).
but if you can suggest a more constructive way for me to get my point across without being irritating then by all means- i am willing to try anything.

Probably spending a fortune on therapy but not to try to change who DH is. Just to bring out the best in who I know he can be and of course to bring out the best in myself so we can work together more harmoniously. i think when you meet you don't get the full picture. add marriage, dogs, children, a house, a business, mutual friends and life events and you have to learn to adapt to make things work. We are all a work in progress so trying to accept that we don't always get it right the first time (or indeed 2nd or 3rd!) and i feel that as long as he shows some willingness as he has in the past it's worth continuing to try to resolve.

I wouldn't say DD is scared of doing something wrong because of how he reacts. She's a pretty stubborn strong willed little thing. Usually does the opposite of what either of us try to get her to do without batting an eyelid. Although she does do some things knowing she'll get in trouble- just adapts her technique to be more stealth! LOL. I just think DH is equally as strong willed and can't see when his own tactics are not working. He is soooo stubborn and yes, controlling and closed minded. He doesn't empathise just thinks- obey!
he's always talking about reading body language and how he is 2 steps ahead of most people (cocky much?!) so has the upper hand and how life is like a 'game of chess'. Pft! Most of it is bravado and sometimes i wonder how he makes friends. I guess he's like marmite!
He lets his own defensiveness cloud his judgement instead of accepting from the person he chose to share his life with, an ounce of advice. That's where i feel disrespected and that's what's really bothering me.