What am I watching unfold here?

[DoormatorDiva]

Please excuse me if this is too long. I'm offloading some worries, that I know I can't do anything about. Here goes:

In late January, my bff went to a dinner party, and met someone. They went for drinks, got on really well, and met again for the following few evenings before he had to leave (he was in the process of relocating, but at that stage was only in the country for a few days). They began texting, Skyping, phoning, for hours every day. He was generous with compliments, telling her she's 'stunning' etc, very polite and chivalrous to the point of being a bit old-fashioned (opening car doors etc). She noticed he seemed "quite anxious and over-thinking" at times, but on the other hand - they seemed to have an amazing amount in common.

He even mentioned liking a favourite song of hers, that she had posted on her fb wall a few months back.

On the surface he seems like her absolute soulmate - more so than anyone else she's ever met. But I'm worried. What do you think:

Within the first week of meeting/Skyping, he was asking when he could he meet her little boy, who has Autism. She told me herself "He is scaring me. He has kids himself and they'll be visiting him eventually. He tells me he hasn't seen his kids for 7mths. He doesn't have custody. That is a red flag. Will need to get to the details later. Anyhoo...I think I just offended him...Will tell you when we speak."

Apparently he would get defensive, whenever she tried to dig. His backstory is that he lost a lot of money a few years ago - mainly property investments that went down in the global recession, and it destroyed his marriage. He became depressed and drank a lot, and when it came to custody, he wasn't strong enough to fight ex-wife...but has since got back on his feet, and now working his way up again. He and his kids talk regularly on the phone - they seem to get on, even though he now lives several thousand miles away from them.

Soon afterwards, bff was helping him view apartments to rent, in the same block as hers. He was asking about them since he was relocating anyway, and she couldn't exactly tell him not to move into her block.

They were also talking so often, that if she didn't reply soon enough to a couple of his texts, due to being busy - he would ring her, to ask if she was alright.

She in turn started to arrange our Skype sessions around his calls. If we were talking on Skype and he phoned, she would arrange to call me back in order to speak to him. (to be continued)

[DoormatorDiva]

amiwhatorhow I am fairly certain he will have realised I am not being won over, and am not likely to be at this rate. It will have been fairly obvious from the bruise joke onwards, that he and I don't share the same sense of humour. Then perhaps he will have noticed I have restricted him on fb. He has apparently told bff that he is never going to speak to me again. (good news all round I should think.)

I'm always astounded by the amount of strong, seemingly confident and capable women who end up with awful partners.

From what I gather about the mutual friends hosting the dinner party, they were protective of her, but are also his friends too, so they don't think that badly of him. Just that he has a reputation as a bit of a playboy, loves women etc. Since then, new man has told bff that what he used to do a lot of, was pick up air hostesses from the flight ('hosties' he called them apparently) and take them out. But he said it was all just going for drinks really, and nothing else. He says his reputation as a party animal is because he can drink, and the ladies man thing is bravado, or laddishness - really she is the first since the divorce. Apparently.

He can be very sweet, obviously. One example she's given, which makes me go a bit 'Awww' too, is she said she got bitten by an insect, and it came up in an itchy lump. So she was fiddling at it with her nail, and he asked what she was doing - she showed him the lump, and he said you mustn't scratch, it will get infected etc...and led her over to the fridge, got an ice cube out and rubbed it on the bite, then put some antihistamine cream on it from the first aid box and covered it with a plaster. All the while chatting away about other stuff, like he was so used to looking after other people, he didn't even give it a second thought. So yeah...interspersed with the headfuckery, there is stuff like that.

[DoormatorDiva]

FiteFuaite - yes certain details, I will have mentioned before, in a different thread. However, I felt it was probably better to post here, as there are other issues that are concerning - and that one was supposed to be about one specific incident initially.

[rockinhippy]

I want to write much more, but not able too right now, but THIS stood out...

One example she's given, which makes me go a bit 'Awww' too, is she said she got bitten by an insect, and it came up in an itchy lump. So she was fiddling at it with her nail, and he asked what she was doing - she showed him the lump, and he said you mustn't scratch, it will get infected etc...and led her over to the fridge, got an ice cube out and rubbed it on the bite, then put some antihistamine cream on it from the first aid box and covered it with a plaster. All the while chatting away about other stuff, like he was so used to looking after other people, he didn't even give it a second thought. So yeah...interspersed with the headfuckery, there is stuff like that

I actually think this ADDS to the headfuckery - think about it - how would a parent threat a child ?? - it's undermining & setting himself up as the one in control - yes it sounds sweet & would be so - in any other circumstances

& I totally agree with those saying be there for her, he will either alienate you all together, lots of ways these sort do this, they manipulate fall outs, or block your calls/attempts at contact until you get fed up with no reply & stop trying - your friend won't know of course, because they'll never get the messages & will also have him feigning disgust at how bad a friend you are, too busy to even call etc -

they do that, or befriend & make you there own allies, they then build wedges between you & these friends by coming back & telling you all the negative stuff that's has supposedly been said about you & how upset he is for you that they could say such things - this changes over time & becomes gloating - by this time you are seeing the cracks yourself of course, but you have been taken over completely by then & you left feeling you have nowhere to turn & he reminds & reminds that it must be you, because everyone else thinks so too - chip chip chipping away:(
Weirdly these types always do go for strong women - I never did work out if that's because the challenge makes them feel stronger when they win, or because they see a weakness there already

So much more I could add, but yes, be there for your friend, even if you THINK she's dropping you, if it comes to it, find creative ways to keep in touch, ways he can't intervene with

[garlicballs]

Is he a pilot??

[garlicballs]

Sorry, ignore me, that was a daft thought.

[amiwhatorhow]

Be careful then, OP. Now that he knows that you can't be won over he will probably try to alienate you and your friend from each other.

I don't think the insect bite thing is awwww, really. I see it as patronising and controlling.

[amiwhatorhow]

sorry, x post with rockin!

[MaggieMaggieMaggieMcGill]

That insect bite, stuff, nuh-uh! Very very infantilising.

[DoormatorDiva]

garlicballs Haha - no!

Oh. I get what you're all saying about the 'insect bite' stuff being infantilising. Yikes, because I'd be quite touched at that too, though. Hasten to add my DP would not do that in a month of sundays!

[StephaniePowers]

The insect bite thing is a bit George Clooney in his ER days
ie scripted, cliched

I have never been with a man who would do that, and I did used to go out with two doctors (not at same time).

[Hissy]

Ooh, yes! Infantalising!

I dumped a guy that ran me a bath and fed me yoghurt while in the bath. At the time I was bemused and touched, and he was saying it was me being pampered, but I was ill at ease somehoe and he turned out to be a right nutter!

You need to warn your friend. Really!

[Mumsyblouse]

It is not so much infantalising as acting out a script of what caring people do (as they don't know themselves). Hissy I have a real dislike of people feeding me, I would have spat the yoghurt out! But it's the acting, the fakeness, the lack of being in touch with your real feelings and emotions towards the other person which is the red flag.

[DoormatorDiva]

I've been thinking a lot about 'scripts' and acting out roles...I think bff 'works off a script' too. Considering what she's been through it's not surprising though.

Messed up childhood and adolescence - I witnessed quite a bit of it, as we spent a lot of school holidays at each other's houses, when we were kids. Her Dad had a violent, abusive temper, she was scapegoated a lot, could never do anything right. Her Mum was/is not a particularly great emotional support.

In relationships, it's the 'romantic cliches' that seem to do it for her. So, in some ways, warning her about red flags won't do any good - because she would see those flags through her 'romantic cliche' glasses, and they would look like virtues.

Reading up on narcissism has made me realise that actually it's not just new man, it's exh too - when I told her I noticed similar narcissistic traits - she said it had some merit, as someone else said that her exh was narcissistic and now I was saying it about new man. I suggested she do some googling of the term herself.

She later said "All this is really scaring me now, not sure how I want to handle it with [NM]". And later on: "I can't think anymore. Everything I thought I knew has collapsed. Finding it hard and scary to make any decisions so I don't make any. Crap isn't it."

But later still - she texted me that she and new man has kissed and made up (I knew they would). He apparently apologised dozens of times about the let downs and disappearing on a bender over the weekend, and promised it wouldn't happen again.

I'm sure new man will be actively trying to create distance between us now - especially if she's told him I think he may have narcissistic tendencies. Maybe he'll succeed - he has the advantage of proximity anyway. The way I see it - I can't help her in any other way, apart from maybe giving her a bit of a heads up, and pointing her in the direction of how she might arm herself with a bit of knowledge. She probably won't do much research when things are going well, but if he keeps messing up, she might.

I do wonder though. Mainly, is it possible for people to change their taste in men, at some point? Presumably people can and do, as some of the posters on other threads, say they moved on to better relationships eventually.

[Kione]

Why does she keep telling him what you tell her? I find that really annoying.

[starfield]

How utterly terrifying. I'm the last person to condemn someone or get hysterical but sounds very dangerous.

Surely you can find out something about him that shows him to be false? What about hiring a private investigator? Your friend need never know.

[DoormatorDiva]

kione Yes - It can only be because she trusts him as much as she does me. Must be really confusing. I'm her oldest and closest friend but he is (she thinks) her brightest hope for a happy life.

starfield Don't think I can afford something like that.

[MaggieMaggieMaggieMcGill]

Why not let some mnetters loose?
There are some amazing online sniffers dogs on this site. Start a new thread snd pm any offers the details?

[HighJinx]

The way I see it - I can't help her in any other way, apart from maybe giving her a bit of a heads up, and pointing her in the direction of how she might arm herself with a bit of knowledge.

I think you could also ask her how she feels about everything that is going on. Focus on what is scaring her out of making decisions. Talk about her and how she feels about him rather than talking about him and who you are afraid/aware he is. Avoid offering any opinions as to what you think of him though, especially if everything you say is being repeated back.

It sounds as though you are making inroads imo. I think she may be repeating everything back because she is (in a confused, muddled way) trying to make sense of it.

[ladyjadie]

is it possible for people to change their taste in men, at some point?

The only answer I can give is, maybe. After all, lots of these men are very successful in hiding their more unsavoury traits until the lady has been 'reeled in' so to speak. Only speaking from my experience, after the first Bf I carried on to have two more unhealthy relationships. Each one was better than the last, and having had such a terrible first experience anything would seem better. When really they were just slightly-less-shit. However I am now with a truly wonderful man with absolutely no red flags at all. Not sure how that happened (!)

Sorry to hijack with a 'me, me, me' story but it is one which may show hope.

Also thanks for clarifying my mix-up! I was glad to hear she didn't say that to you (the not mixing in those circles thing) because I was afraid his games had been working on her well and that she was developing a false sense of being better than you. Thank God I was wrong!

Re: her calling you to voice her concerns than going back to him (sigh) yes, of course she did. She realllly doesn't want him to be the 'bad man', she'll forgive anything she sees as 'minor'. It probably seems to you that you're watching a car crash in slow motion, and there is nothing really that you can do to help right now. Except listen and be very aware that anything you say will probably be relayed to him. Does she only call you when something's happened? Or do you have say a weekly phone catch-up?

[HighJinx]

lots of these men are very successful in hiding their more unsavoury traits until the lady has been 'reeled in' so to speak.

Yes, I read a great analogy on MN once saying that if someone plunged you into boiling water you would immediately be aware of the danger and get out. However if they slowly increase the temperature bit by bit you don't necessarily notice how hot it's getting.

[MummyOfSunbeam]

It sounds worrying to me.

[DoormatorDiva]

Maggie I don't doubt there may be some very good 'online sniffer dogs' lol. It probably sounds hypocritical, given I've already said so much (feel it's disloyal enough doing this), but I would feel extremely uncomfortable disclosing personal details, even to well-intentioned mners.

At the moment he hasn't really done that much - it's just lots of red flags, and 'possible knobbishness' is hardly a crime. There's been no violent behaviour, no verbal abuse. As far as she's concerned she's really happy and I've got it all wrong - he's immature, a bit full of himself, but essentially good fun, and treats her very well. She feels very safe.

If it wasn't for so many others here, with no agenda, or bias, who also expressed serious concern - and, god forbid, thinks he might actually be dangerous, even I would probably have put it down to me being overly protective (even though I've never been so before).

Hijinx
In my initial pissed off reaction to the bruise joke - I did go as far as saying "I think you're in too deep at the moment, to see the wood for the trees." (ugh! Awful mixed metaphors - what was I thinking) She replied that she doesn't want to see the wood. She said "'The wood' is Divorce and Autism". So new man provides escape from that.

She's very hung up about the divorce, and ds' autism - it came up a lot in her conversations, in the last couple of years, in a 'life is completely shit' type context. The inability to make decisions/trust her own judgement probably stems from that period.

However, she was/is starting to pick herself up - only in the past 6mths, but she started sounding noticably stronger, making new friends, settling into life over there, got ds settled into a nice school - then met this man. Hate to see her risk it all, without due care. I reminded her (when she was still mad at him over the messed up weekend) that she was picking up her life again before he came along, not because of...hope she remembers that, at least!

[DoormatorDiva]

ladyjadie Tbh - I've started to realise, gradually over the last few years, that she is far, far more affected by her messed up childhood than I ever knew. She's always been outwardly strong and a 'survivor', but jeez, underneath she's really susceptible to narcissistic men. Her first serious bf committed suicide when she broke up with him - she and I were in our late teens and I was with her through a lot of the aftermath of that too. I thought he was depressed, and tragically killed himself. Obviously that put her off relationships altogether, for a good many years, until she met exh.

However, over our recent conversations, she actually told me her first bf used to have 'a shit temper' and drove very recklessly when in a mood. A few times she was afraid for both their lives. Now, I vaguely remember that she did mention one or two things at the time (though I was so young and naive myself then, it didn't register!).

So when she mentioned this recently, I pointed out how strange, that her first serious bf should have a shit temper, just like her Dad. She just replied "I'm so screwed!!!" Of course I said no she isn't, though IF it doesn't work out with this guy, maybe she does need to do some soul-searching around all that...which then became the chat about narcissists/abusive relationships...and how someone else had said her exh was narcissitic, and now there I was saying it about new man...Gawd - I really wish she would think about getting some professional help...

It does feel like watching a car crash in slow motion - but I suppose the difference is that it's not one continuous 'disastrous' event. It's broken up by really good times I'm sure! I've noticed that nm posted up a fb status that they were both "enjoying Saturday drinks" - and I got an alert that bff posted a pic, but when I clicked it had gone - I think maybe she has 'downgraded' me on her privacy settings - perhaps it was a photo of them in a bar and she thought I'd disapprove...

It'll be interesting what happens, as we usually have a catch-up chat once a week, unless something's happens, i.e. the weekend he messed up, and she was pissed off with him - she contacted me to chat. So it's a flexible weekly thing.

[DoormatorDiva]

P.s. ladyjadie - no don't apologise for your story! It does give hope. So glad you're with someone nice now!

Yes you reminded me about her first relationship - he sounds like a right nutter now. At the time I thought he was 'flashy' (again not my type) - but 'OK'. They were together for about 2-3yrs. And omg that was quick involvement too...She finished with him when she went to collage (now it makes sense why she waited til she left town). Looking back he could've been the worst one of the lot - then exh probably looked like a saint in comparison - and now this guy...

[DoormatorDiva]

collage? college!