"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."<br />
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"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
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<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
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More helpful links:<br />
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<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a><br />
<br />
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."<br />
<br />
Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

[oldtoys]

reading 'Asserting Yourself - A Practical Guide For Positive Change' by Sharon Bower/Gordon Bower. V helpful right now re the doing what you feel is right, not what you think others expect of you etc It is exhausting trying to please others all the time it really is

[oldtoys]

I quote: ' one of your basic human rights is self defence, when your rights are breing stepped on. When being exploited and mistreated by a Downer, it is your basic right to object and to change that exploitative relationship. Of course your legitimate rebellion may cause the exploiter some discomfort!'

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Just tell him the truth. Your mother your choice.

[oldtoys]

I've told him he cant tell me to phone her & he apologised, as he knows the situation

[HellesBelles396]

not too bad at dm's after all. she did her usual bit of weirdness about being the one who has to answer the door if anyone from my cousin's family come to the house, made a couple of sarcky comments about db but, calmly, I stuck up for him . assigned everyone else but her jobs after dinner - except herself and started quizing me when I left - wanting to know why and what I would be doing. otherwise though, she was like a normal human being. hurrah!

[FairyFi]

to you all... Hope the day has been ok. I've had a lovely time of NC. xx

[BlackMaryJanes]

Happy Mothers Day everyone. I've been NC with my mother since July. Still NC now. No regrets :)

[CaptChaos]

Well, the wedding was amazingly fine.

DV ExP has no power over me anymore, and was far more uncomfortable about everything than I was. I was very proud of myself for rising above his usual shenanigans. Vile Sil was far too busy being vile to my poor DB, because he hadn't checked to see what the menu was for my DN's as they eat a very restricted diet, no fruit, no veg, nothing that doesn't come in breadcrumbs from what I could tell. She tried to start on me, but I just smiled and nodded and asked DB if the girls might eat some of the bits and bobs we had picked up along the way. Chaos saved the day a bit!

Mother was fine all day, a couple of catty remarks about how I have wasted my life etc to start with, but I just looked at her and said that we weren't there to discuss that, and she (luckily) left it. Later on, she got a bottle of champagne and glasses enough for her, DB and Sil, and pointedly none for DH and me, but that just made me giggle. I don't drink, DH isn't keen on champers so what was the point?

At the end of the evening, which was quite early as I've had tonsillitis/flu/yuk for the week, mother grabbed hold of one of our friends who had come to the evening do and said 'Why does she hate me?' WTAF? I have nothing to say on the subject, as there would be no point, but.... Instead of sitting with us and huffing all bloody night, why didn't she go and sit with ExP and his family, like she wanted to and leave me alone? ARGH!

Apart from that and strangely coloured bridesmaids, the wedding was lovely. V proud of my boys, who were both smart as carrots!

[Makingmama]

Hi...hoping for some survival techniques and just general handholding. My parents (mainly mother) are VERY controlling. I had a couple of years peace (almost) when they moved continents so it wasn't as easy for dm to get in touch with me. But whenever she did phone I had to answer...god forbid I'm busy or something ! Anyway I've gone and done a pretty stupid thing in ignorance and desperation (dh, I and our 3 dc were skint!)...i@ve given in to their constant nagging and we've moved to the 'other' continent to work for them, we're currently livig with them (have been for 3 months now)...and it is KILLING me...and my poor dc are having a lot targeted towards them too re behaviour, loudness etc etc etc. So they now have total control of not only me but my whole family - help!!!

We were promised good pay, own house/car etc as part of the 'normal' package you would receive in this country. However, we arrived and of course none of that has happened (I'm so cross with myself for being so naive!!!) We're living with them (until there's free £ to find us an apartment or whatever...) no car, very minimal pay for here which is 'just' covering food and travel expenses. We have no savings or means to get away (they are aware of this).

Quickly going insane, losing myself, feel like I'm dying actually (sorry I know that sounds melodramatic!)...but this is really damaging all of the good I feel happened when thet weren't so close.

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

That's awful makingmama. I'm off to work in a minute. Read the links in the op as they're full of advice.

I think you need to borrow money if you have to, ask to stay with someone in the UK as you move back until you find your feet. Anything other than remain there But I know life isn't that simple.

[CreepyLittleBat]

That's horrendous! If it was any other employer, you could do them for breach of contract and leave, but it sounds like you're stuck. Can you make a long and a medium term plan for getting out, so that you'll be able to see an end in sight? Even if it takes a long time, at least you won't feel like it's for ever. What would happen if you confronted them?

[FairyFi]

just terrible foryou all makingm Don't be hard on yourself, for the longest time we naturally assume that things will be ok, optimistic that 'this' will be different now, or somehow she'll realise/stop.

Sounds horrific to be holed up with them! no it doesn't sound melodramatic, i think it makes absolute sense that you can only be 'dead' in that sense when around her, as she is the only one allowed to be 'alive'! because its all about her. I'd be tempted to call her on every single thing she does, or arm the children by backing them each time she attempts side swipes or direct hits... this might make her just ignore you, which would be one thing to hope for ! but it might jeopardise your situation there?

The best tools and techniques are those that make you very clear in yourself of who you are, and what a lovely person you are, and going about your business as if she is not there, she will make this nigh on impossible, but it is your chance to survive her. Do your own stuff, with your DC and DH. Get out as much as possible. Sideline her from your activities, and sortof go NC but whilst together.

Focus on the end goal to get out, all the time. Write things up clearly, every abuse. Totting the money, keeping track of hours etc. By writing it down (you can use here as your journal to keep writing it out) you can remain clear about her part, and be yourself unembroiled in it. Also the clearer you can see her for what she is, the better your mental health with fare!

I was forced to live with mine... very short term, it was trly horrendous, she was even stealing my belongings! I found some very expensive things that I thought I had lost and had to prove they were mine, but I did eventually and got them back... beyond help I tell you, really. AFter a lifetime of washing she managed to ruin loads of clothes in the wash, taking over and doing stuff that I didn't want her to. Taking my washing! eeeuuw! Back to no privacy, etc. just awful.

I really feel for you... just keep coming back to offload, it will keep you sane... xx

[Lostfound]

Hi, I'm new to this thread. A friend of mine is a single mum and is having problems with her family. Recently she has been going to counselling having realised that her childhood was not 'ok'. She is currently at the position where she hasn't spoken to her mum or dad for a few months, but finally had the conversation about it all and why they do not seem to bother with her child (but boast about the brilliant grandparents they are to their grandchild) as they came back to her telling her how upset her mum was that she hadn't received a Mother's Day card from her.
The result of all this is that they blame her for their behaviour, because of her lack of communication over the past few months this has caused them to take a step back from her child. they claim to have made all the effort for making the relationship work and are terribly upset at what has happened. And in some bizarre turn of events it's apparently up to my friend to make up with them.

To be honest I can't believe what I'm hearing and find it difficult how to advise her further. I don't really understand their behaviour. Is this sort of toxic behaviour really common? Apparently they also claim that any of the ill feelings she has towards them is due to her misinterpretations of them.

[FairyFi]

yes all this denial and turning the blame back on her is traditionally whats to be expected wth toxic parents.

This is how you know their toxicity. Regular parents will find it uncomfortable but want to listen to upsets caused, take responsibility for their part and want to apologise and move forward together. Not so the toxic parents.

Have a good read of the thread here, it should give you a fair understanding of their behaviour, you may feel more equipped to support, but also the links are well worth investigating and maybe pointing her to. I think its probably more worth her while looking through this stuff now, if she feels it would help her and she wants to pursue this for herself. she could well recognise some of the tactics and get some validations for herself, which are the way out of the FOG that might be keeping her there.

best wishes ... do keep posting xx

[marissab]

Makingm i feel for you, i really do. I went on a 1 week holiday with my parents and it was horrific. You weren't being nieve. Even the most horrible person, you would expect, would honor tgeir promises when you've moved your whole family to another country for them! That is not unreasonable. I would try and sit down with them, and try and get them to commit to a time scale for when things such as the house will happen. You have my sympathies x

[HughPughBarneyMcGrew]

Please may I have a quick rant? NC since last October; no Christmas cards or presents, birthday cards, phone calls, emails, text messages. I am a lot happier, a lot more relaxed, able to concentrate on DC and DH and my life.

From my parents this morning, a text, wishing our dog a happy birthday WTF?! I've just deleted the number off the phone in a rage and now I'm overwhelmed with the usual FOG. Two steps forwards, three steps back. Grrrrrrr. Thanks for listening

[FairyFi]

well done for going NC... stupid text, predictable and pathetic!

Stick to your guns, ignore stupid text, stay wrong, not for no reason did you go through everything to go NC, this is just an example to prove to you why you did it! Just a little reminder of what a good decision you made is all

Welcome here.. keep posting xx

[FairyFi]

oops... stay strong! not 'wrong' of course!

[Makingmama]

Thanks everyone great advice fairyfo, I'm definitely going to try and keep a diary.

I can get so confused sometimes and start to think it's actually all just me and I must be really screwed up making her be the way she is etc? She can come across as SO lovely to people, even to me. She goes on ALL of the time about how amazing she is, how generous she is and kind and thoughtful etc etc...it's very confusing.

When I had much less contact I could see it all so clearly. I had psychotherapy sessions who said I need to keep a healthy distance and learn to say no to them etc as they sounded so controlling. They can never see that they're in the wrong...ever.

Just really hoping we get our own place soon. If this doesn't happen we have flights for hols back to uk in july - i expect we'll just have to somehow work somthing out then to stay...not easy as have no one who can put us up etc.

Thanks again.

[WildeRumpus]

Hello ladies. I have been lurking for a while but as narc mum is coming back on my radar I really would appreciate your support :(

Bloody narc mum went nc with me 18 months ago after I explained that I couldn't have the big society wedding she wanted after all but me and dp (of 11 years with a 2 year old too) simply wanted to be married with no fanfare. We are not showy people, I don't even have parties for my birthday, I was finishing a PhD and bringing up ds plus we don't have our own home - a 20 grand wedding could be a deposit... Well she went mad because I was taking her day away. More reasons were that she was making the day hers - she organised the top table with her new boyf on it, would invite then fall out with people and uninvite them, was taking the credit for paying for it when in fact was going thirds, and acting all funny about paying for stuff and unable even to sort out her accommodation. It was awful and with a whole year still to go I was crying over it! So we cancelled.

It is so complicated but basically my mum is also a problem drinker and so rude when she is drunk. She would have horrified my new in laws, and offended me. But she is posh so thinks she is ok. Bah.

I fell dramatically from the golden girl status and was kicked out of the family. I think she thought I would relent and go back crawling and still have that wedding. Deluded. I have never stood up to her before but like so many of you, having a child changed what I could put up with.

After no Xmas cards apart from to ds and a phonecall a year ago saying she was sorry but... (Then blamed us) my younger brother has emailed us all basically saying me and my mum should make up now.

I can't go back. I tried to go back and she ignored my emails and would put the phone down on me. It hurt so so.much. counselling showed me that she was very controlling and helped.me be strong. But I feel the fog now, so strongly. I feel like a bitch, a ruiner of families, selfish and petty. But since I made some peace with her silence I have stopped hating myself.
I don't have depressive episodes and feel stronger in.myself than I ever have with her as my 'mum'. I can't go back, can I?

Ah hell. Help?! Sorry to offload :(

[WildeRumpus]

Fairy, Hugh and making - gosh I can identify with your feelings so much. I hope you are all ok.

[FairyFi]

good to offload Wilde keep it coming! resist the fog with every breathe in your body! You might ask her 'who's day is it?' - but she'd only says 'hers' and think she's right! Bah indeed! Doing ok here thanks, NC is the best way, but its a struggle having no family, but in reality they're not family anyway in that sense. Whoa!.. no going back

y y Making such a lovely lady, so caring, kind thoughtful --back-stabbing, lying, ignorant, deceitful, neglectful......* [my narcM]

[Lovemarmite]

Hi everyone, I've been reading this page for a while and keep putting off coming to terms with my own mum but trying to ignore it means I'm thinking about it more than I want to.
I bought the book but can't face reading it yet.
Through pregnancy, (DD is 6.5 months now) my mum was very unsupportive and tried to treat me like I was a child (I'm 39) she said when I was 8.5 mths pregnant that even though I was pregnant, she could still smack me. She also brought up problems that I had produced when I was a child and couldn't wait to see how I will cope with a naughty child of my own. I had to remind her that one incident she mentioned which was not attending 6th form college was because I was bullied. I have to also tell you at 8.5 months pregnant i was scared of childbirth and also my LO was diagnosed with a cleft lip and palate and so all I wanted from people was support and love.
When it was diagnosed I told my mum and she shrugged it off and said its amazing what make up can do and that was just hare lip. I was so sad as I was advised about feeding issues, speech etc and how my LO would find life that little bit harder with operations etc, I just felt vulnerable for me and LO.
During the very last few weeks of pregnancy (went over by 2.5 weeks) I was told by a mutual friend that my mum was feeling left out and that I should involved her more. I was dumbstruck as I had been ignoring her (and have done so many times) but she made my pregnancy about her again. My mum apparently wanted to look after my LO and she was telling all the family and friends that I wouldn't let her and so I had a few family members come and talk to me about it and that my mum was the most important person to me. This all made me sadder and I have not cried so much in my life. It still makes me sad.
When I confronted her (by email) about all this and how she'd upset me, she went on about what a terrible mother she is etc, I ignored it as I wanted no discussion on her. Then after our daughter was born, I tried to talk to her and she said that she was so hurt about how I had acted whilst I was pregnant.
I have so many stories about how she is toxic as she is a very competitive person and bullied us during childhood, she would always put me in my place e.g. say to everyone at a meal time that my sister is lovely and I was a different story and very capricious. This is partly because I try to not let her always dictate to me what to think, feel etc but my dad and sister never step out of line or say anything to disrupt my mum's dictatorship.
Sorry I meant to post a short post here but ended in a ramble.

What do you think I should do next? I want to ignore more but she has developed a rather bad back and can't walk and there's no way with a 6.5 month baby and a 2 mile drive I am going over to help, my sister isn't either. But she is making me feel guilty about never visiting.
Whilst I was going through the pregnancy I really felt like my mum was dead to me, a bit harsh but I do feel I am unable to emotionally connect with her or want to help.
Thanks for listening.

[FairyFi]

want to NC now to CuthbertDibbleGrub !!!

[FairyFi]

this sounds horribly familiar Love I think you did the right thing, but she's not going to make it any easier for you or let you get off lightly and just walk off! CB makes it all come to a head as you rightly focus on your baby and the big hurdles of childbirth and newborn to navigate, esp where there are additional complications to face (which I am sorry you have all had to deal with, mine was all in crisis so I understand the extra needed to manage medical complications). They shouted at me in the hosp. because phone calls weren't timely (well won't go into that .. but you get the idea).

I actually gave her more time than the DC father! Choosing the pram, and big items, but I was still rejecting her! She scorned me drawing attention tothe baby moving. Do you know, noone wanted to feel my baby move during my pregnancy. there are some horrendously uncaring and cold people in the world, but she's the number 1. It caused me awful pain, but no more... going NC was the right thing. Also know that she has all sorts of medical stuff (and always did, pooooor pooor her) going on, but no, she has to manage that without me, I can't be abused and be,not only nice to her, but support her in her difficulties, not when its so damaging to me.

Welcome newcomers... sad that you have to share this stuff, but its so good to offload! Keep posting and reading... its helped me enormously xx