Has anyone, ever, managed to explain to a narcissist what a narcissist is ...and to accept that they are one?

[ScarletWomanoftheVillage]

Trouble in my family is brewing again, and I am being called upon to help and advise my siblings and their partners about dealing with our npd mother.

I have had very low contact with my npd mother for many, many years now, can't remember if it is 12, or 13 years, but a good long time. I have posted on here before about this, spent much time on the Stately Homes thread, and am quite happy most of the time with the boundaries between me and my m.

But my siblings are still suffering and want my help. One has written to our mother to tell her what is wrong and how he would like to change things, and has asked for my comments on what he has written to her. I have explained as much as I can, about dis-engaging, FOG, etc. and the fact that it is pointless to explain things as she won't see it in the same way. But, he doesn't want to cut her off. He wants things to change.

I feel sad that he is going to be very upset when she responds in a hideous way to what he has written, as she invariably will. I feel sad that I can't think of a way of him changing things without getting done over by her. He is and tries to be a loving son and is bewildered by how nasty she can be. He puts so much effort in, to no avail.

I just want to know, from anyone who has good knowledge on this subject if there has ever been a narcissist who knows they are one, and whether if so, there is anything such a person can do to get help to be less of one IYSWIM?

Or does the very nature of narcissism mean that there is no way such a person could be made to recognise the disorder in themselves?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[JaceyBee]

Yeah I take your point garlic. I just get a bit uneasy about some of the language used on here to describe people who through no fault of there own have a pretty debilitating mental disorder. 'Half human freaks' is one that particularly stood out. Nice!

It's an interesting question as to whether they're all unhappy. I suppose not but I think mostly they are. It must be incredibly isolating. And obviously there is a difference between having narcissistic traits and actual NPD. Your mum may have it, or she may not. Without presenting to medical or forensic professionals she wouldn't have been given a dx though.

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Can they be unhappy? How do they notice and acknowledge a feeling like that? Isn't it a sign of weakness?

[garlicblocks]

I don't think it works like that, Charlotte. You know how some compulsive eaters eat to fill a 'hole' they feel inside them? And some self-harmers cut in order to 'feel'? Well, I get the impression that narcissistic supply is the food, and narcissistic rage is the blade.

One who despises weakness in others would also despise it in himself. A person who despises himself must be unhappy.

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

JCB, since you work with Ns, can I ask a question? Abusers are supposed to live away from their spouses while on an abuser program. Would there be a similar requirement for Ns in specialist therapy?

[JaceyBee]

Of course they can acknowledge feelings. In themselves anyway. They're not robots. They just struggle to care much about other people's sometimes. In the way that toddlers or teenagers might.

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Garlic, I kinda get what you're saying. The whole thing is very confusing. The book I'm reading at the moment seems to say that if a N sees something in himself (or herself) that he can't accept, he'll project it onto himself, so that he is whole and perfect again. I have no idea whether unhappiness would be one of those things, though. These are rather new ideas to grapple with.

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Actually, I've just come off the phone to H, who is "depressed" because he was lonely last week, so I know what I'm saying is bollocks if I think about it. I guess I just struggle to believe there's much depth to that emotion. He seems at times as if he IS a robot, imitating real emotion, having observed it closely in humans...

[JaceyBee]

Charlotte, not as a requirement from a therapist no. Only as a probation condition. Although I guess it could be helpful, part of therapy is learning how to relate to others in a different way so it's helpful if they bring real examples of interpersonal difficulties etc to sessions, so the therapist can help them reframe them. Not always easy though of course!

[JaceyBee]

Charlotte one of the terms used to describe sociopaths is 'they know the words but not the music' meaning they do a good job of pretending to experience the world like other people, but they don't understand the emotions behind it.

[garlicblocks]

if a N sees something in himself (or herself) that he can't accept, he'll project it onto himself, so that he is whole and perfect again.

Isn't this projecting onto others rather than the self? Or do you mean a reframing of the imperfection, so as to cast it in a flattering light?

If the latter, I'd say we all do that
Projecting their own faults onto others, though, is something we're familiar with on these threads.

My moment of realisation was when my ex took it a step too far: he raged that I never do anything for charity. Since this was 100% true for him and 100% false for me, I was forced to recognise that he was not all right in the head. And thus began this ongoing voyage of discovery ...!

[EclecticWorkInProgress]

JaceyBee, I understand your point of view. I understand that my sister is unhappy. But that is not going to give her license to further abuse me, or to manipulate me into putting myself back into depression to put up with her behavior, iyswim.

The purpose of these threads is for support for the victims/suvivors of people who have had to be involved with the ones whose behavior is so damaging it is nothing less than emotional abuse. Imho, at this point, a dx is irrelevant; requiring authorization to use the term about an anonymous person on an anonymous forum may be, perhaps, juat a little pedantic and would hinder the flow of conversation/support.

There are lots of types of emotional abuse. The "NPD", narcissistic label here, is for the people to zero in on exactly the type of abuse that they are encountering. It is not easy to talk about, to understand, to deal with or to recover from the effects of it.

The folks with narcissistic personality disorder, narcissistic traits, borderline traits, borderline personality disorder, anger management issues, bipolar disorder, bipolar traits, control issues, permanent/chronic immaturity disorder (I made that one up), or people who are just plain mean, can have their own support threads.

hth

[garlicblocks]

You have put that really well, Eclectic. Thank you.

We need the labels. As both linguists and psychologists know, humans can't actualise a concept without vocabulary. Discovering the language of personality disorders (as wittily enumerated above!) casts a sudden, clear light on our confusing experience and empowers us to discuss it. Formal diagnosis is irrelevant - though you'd be surprised how often an OP's problem person does, indeed, get one several months after 'internet diagnosis' on here.

Now you've covered that so nicely I can go to sleep!
imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Isn't this projecting onto others?

Oops. Yes!

[EclecticWorkInProgress]

Thanks garlic.

[Abitwobblynow]

JCB loved your contribution and you are quite right.

My H has been Dx by two psychologists - and they both make the point he is not malignant but a frightened little boy.
He was absolutely made by his family and background. And my contribution is that I have been trained to see narcissism as normal (the bit I have to work on).

They are deeply unhappy. Your point about toddlers/teenagers is EXCELLENT. It is exactly that, that complete inability to imagine anyone else. My H said to me a long time ago (during OW time when he was unravelling) 'I feel empty inside'. It is such a pity he won't do the work, but this is who he is.

The other point I wanted to make, is that these people are not just one thing and we must work to incorporate the whole. So in my case, good father/awful husband/successful executive/frightened little boy all at once, and hold those contradictions with compassion, instead of reacting.

That is what I am working towards and it's a lot cheaper than divorce. WHEN I don't react is when I know I am free (and healed). Then? I can choose freely. LTB isn't always the only option, but all the options are shit. (This is why I hate self-help books. They never acknowledge that all the options are shit). This is such a sad scenario, isn't it.

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

How on earth did you get him to the psychologists, wobbly? (Not that I'm so interested in getting my H a diagnosis any more.)

[CleopatrasAsp]

Abitwobblynow you sound lovely but it makes me sad that you are living the type of life you've described, it sounds awful. It may be sad for your DH and he may be all the things you describe without it being his 'fault' but life is very short and it's not your fault either so why should you have to live a life numbing yourself to the behaviour of someone who is supposed to love and cherish you? Forget about his needs/fears etc for a moment, you deserve to be happy too.

[JaceyBee]

Thanks wobbly
I have followed your story with respect and admiration for you, what a compassionate and empathic person you must be. I do hope that you are managing to keep yourself safe and considering your own needs as well as considering your dh though.

[Abitwobblynow]

Thanks Cleopatra I agree, but I am not going to kid myself that I don't have work to do as well. And the whole finding myself in a bedsit thing doesn't appeal to me at all.
One of the hooks that ties a person to a narcissist is waiting/hoping/expecting them to change. This is a VERY hard think to unhook - they SHOULD be human and normal!! But as Les Carter says 'expecting a narcissist to be non-narcissistic is an exercise in futility'.
So it really is one of my lessons (and it has taken THREE YEARS to start getting it) to truly accept 'he really is like this, he is this empty' in order to start to let go. I wouldn't get it in a bedsit would I? I would just be setting myself up for the next one...
So I live as though I am alone. When I am impervious to his sulks and covert digs, ie they do not affect my sense of self and my equilibrium or my purpose in life, then I will know that finally, after 50 years of narcissism, I am healed.

I have a lot of faults too! Charlotte, remember the psychologists said he wasn't a malignant narcissist? He checked himself into IC because he wanted to be a better person.
that lasted as long as he discovered that it would involved hard emoitional work and self reflection He hardly goes now. I go faithfully every week. I really do want to live the second half of my life with more fulfilment and inner peace than the first half. He said it, but I'm working on it.

[CailinDana]

Sorry if you've talked about all this already and I've missed it abitwobbly, but why would it be necessary for you to live in a bedsit?

[Lueji]

My comment earlier was because you recognise that your H is like, but you are still falling into the same traps of opening yourself emotionally to him.
Leaving can both be a physical and emotional process.

I'm not sure I agree that you'd fall into the same traps if you left him.
I don't think people with normal emotions can ever deal full time with someone like him.
It seems to me that you have found a good excuse to maintain your current lifestyle, but at the same time having a huge burden on you.
I'm worried that you may end up shutting your emotions at some point, or end up miserable because it becomes too late for you to leave.

[Abitwobblynow]

CallinDana - because all the research points to women and children being made significantly poorer by divorce whilst men recover economically within 7 years.

So it is in my interests to transform from being a SAHM of 20 years to professionally qualified and squirrelling away so that I truly am standing on my own two feet. He is not physically, verbally or financially abusive and our marriage functions.

Wobbly is many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

Leuji, did you read my comment about professional training and case study? I would be NO different, have no more insight, if I was currently separated, sheesh! PLEASE do believe that I know what I am doing. This is an active stance, not a victim one.

[CailinDana]

To stay and carry on being treated badly by him seems a much tougher choice to me than just leaving and making your own way, albeit with less money. The reason I feel that way is because I find poor treatment extremely stressful and I think over time it would wear me down to nothing, no matter how much I was trying to not let it get to me. I would worry about my sanity to be honest - the effort it would take to withstand that sort of treatment would wear me out mentally.

That's just my take on it, you seem to be coping. I worry though that over time you will run out of steam.

[ScarletWomanoftheVillage]

Hi again, this is all most interesting. Thanks for everyone's comments and for keeping this discussion going.

In answer to an earlier question, my brother says he can't bring himself to send it and unleash the chaos. In one way, this is good as maybe he's starting to see that telling her what she's doing wrong and asking her not to do it, is not going to end well.

But, how is he going to get her to stop going round unannounced, talking about his wife to others, judging and criticising him and his wife on every possible subject, bitching about other people and family members in front of his children, making flippant comments about how lavishly she used to spend money, when he and my other brother now have to find huge amounts of money each month to pay for her financial disaster? How can he stop the rages, the tears, the dramas, the threats, the constant attempts to undermine him, his wife his children. How can he stop her?

I so wish I could help him.

He says he's working on a shorter email and will send it to me to see what I think.

In fact he could get it so short it was one sentence, and it would still make her kick off. Basically if you don't indulge her at every turn, she turns and is hateful.

[Lueji]

If you say so. :)

Your reply to him in the outing doesn't suggest it's working that well, though.