I need to talk to someone normal about my husband.

[FeelingLousyAgain]

Normal people over here please! (tongue in cheek)

I am in a bad place with my husband. Basic story: married 15 years, 2 dc aged 10 and 9. I have been, at various times in our marriage, in full time work, part time work, voluntary unpaid work and as a SAHM (the last two overlap). We spent the last three years with me re-training for a new career, and I qualified this year. I'm now working f / t (flexible hours). New job meant a move of house, so moved to a new area in my home county and the county that DH knows best. DH has long term clinical depression, but says it's fine and under contro lwithmeds at the moment.

So far so good (except the depression). Except that, since we moved and I started my new job, dh has been mostly v. emotionally distant - he says he feels 'numb'. He had a big depressive episode in Sept-Oct, and it was absolutely horrible. He talked then about leaving me. He withdrew a lot over Christmas and I got quite worried about him from a MN POV, and started thinking about whether his meds were enough etc.

On New Year's Day I mentioned that, now that we are living in a nice big house with a big garden, we might think about getting a dog. His response was that he didn't want to complicate our lives with a dog. I asked if he felt that life was too complicated, and he responded by saying that for weeks, he'd been thinking about whether he still wanted to be with me. He said 'We'll always have a good relationship, even if the marriage fails', and 'I don't want you to think that I haven't thought of the kids in all of this.' His reason that he gave was that he didn't feel as though he has a role in our relationship any more, he's seen how capqable I am and he doesn't feel needed.

I was really shocked as I had no idea that he'd think this - I had thought that the October episode was an abberation. I was really upset and cuoldn't sleep that night. Next day, I went back to bed for a bit to catch up on sleep and he came in, and we talked - he ended up saying that he is committed to our relationship.

Then last night something sparked another conversation - I am struggling with my workload and have been ill over the last few weeks. He started off by responding positively, but then started saying that my workload is affecting our relationship and I' dbetter sort it out soon, before there's no mariage left to save. (I work about 45 hours a week). I said that sounded like a threat and he didn't really respond.

I have access to counselling through my work, and last night dh agreed to counselling, so I emailed the counsellor today but I haven't heard back yet.

The reality of dh's feelings (or lack) has hit me hard, and I've felt v. down today. Dh got home from work, tookone look at me, said 'You're not right'. Aftre a bit of chat I told him how hurt and upset I am with him. He ate his dinner in silence then went to bed at 7.30pm. We had talked about having sex tonight.

Sorry it's so long. I just need to talk to someone who is normal and not me, or dh. My friends are all too far away (because we moved). What do I do? Dh has said I haven't done anything wrong. I'm more or less 100% sure that there isn't anyone else involved.

[FeelingLousyAgain]

To whom would I complain? Relate? She has lots of certificates up on her walls from various bodies / universities.

[AnyFucker]

If you don't feel you can face complaining about her...at least switch to another counsellor. And when she asks why...tell her.

[Spero]

She ought to be a member of some kind of organisation if she is practising. She should have some kind of supervisor. I am a member of the ADR group, there are a number of others who cover family mediation/counselling. She should make it clear in any literature she produces/website.

This kind of thing just reinforces my view that the State has to regulate this profession.

[FeelingLousyAgain]

AF, he didn't baulk exactly but he did and we both said on the way home that we think she's wrong wrt the impact of divorce on children.

He was actually v. reasonable - said that he fully understands why I've asked him to go, and won't push me to have him back. He said it hurt him to hear me talking so honestly about how hurt I am by him, and he doesn't want to hurt me any more. He shares my worry that we'll be back in this place in six months / three years / how long is a piece of string, and he'd rather we split now than go through this again. I agreed.

[FeelingLousyAgain]

Spero, I'll check out the Sturge/Glaser research. Where can I read about it? I have online access to specialist journals, so if you could recommend any articles, I'll read up.

[AnyFucker]

Can't argue with that

Is it not mediation, rather than counselling you need ?

[MaybeOrnot]

It's splitting,hard as it may be,that Feeling needs to do. DH keeps bringing it up.

[Spero]

This case is a good starting point
www.westerncircuit.org.uk/Documents/Pupils/PA130310/PA130310%20Case%20of%20Re%20L%20%5B2000%5D%20Fam%20260.pdf

I appreciate that a lot of the discussion is about impact of really serious physical violence, but it seems clear from the research that even hearing violent incidents, including screaming and shouting can have a very bad impact on children.

it has certainly been used as an indicator of significant harm in care proceedings.

[Mumsyblouse]

I have just logged in to say that is simply the worst couples counsellor I have ever heard of! How on earth does she know what has gone on in your marriage. Her advice is dangerous, and luckily you and your husband both know it's wrong for you. Not impartial or supportive.

I think everything you have written makes me think this is the right decision for you, I think you have lived on eggshells your entire marriage, either through emotional threats, fear of depression which is not properly treated and an underlying lack of support and belief in you as a person. You will blossom after all this (I bet your kids do too).

[Spero]

I think the court starts looking in detail at the Sturge/Glaser work at about page 8, sorry there is quite a lot to wade thru.

But this case is from 2000! understanding the implication of domestic violence has thus been pretty mainstream for 13 years now. She really ought to have known better.

[MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot]

Wow - she's one for the bin that's for sure! She should not be practising and when you have the energy please make a formal complaint before too many other women are subjected to her - women who can't see her advice is shit and women who don't have MN to tell them her advice is shit.

She is so wrong it's not even funny. She shouldn't be in her job.

What are you going to do?

If it were me, I'd be making the split formal & permanent. Depression or not he's a manipulative bastard and he's not good for you or the kids. What he does about his mental health is his problem - don't let him lay that at your feet!!

[Solopower1]

Your story has so many similarities with mine that I don't know where to begin!

I feel very, very sorry for you, but feel that this is really just the beginning. When I first started reading your thread I was thinking 'Don't leave him, find a way,' etc (because of the kids), but very soon it became clear just how horrible your life with him has been.

Now I am sure you should not let him come back, and you should concentrate your efforts on making the separation as painless as possible for everyone, especially the children.

I would say that children almost always suffer, ime, when parents break up, but their suffering can be greatly lessened by the way you go about it. Not saying nasty things about each other in front of them, assuring them they are loved by both of you, showing that you respect your husband, that you don't hate him, he's not a nasty person, etc. Because after all, they have half his genes, and they might identify with him.

Eventually, when they are older, you can tell them that he was ill, and judging by one or two things you have said, they might have felt they were walking on eggshells too. In fact maybe the whole mood is lightened when he's not there?

Also, this can be quite a dangerous stage in separations. In my case, after his efforts at 'persuasion' failed, he started having violent temper tantrums, which were dangerous (for me). So protect yourself.

My son doesn't blame me at all, now, for leaving his dad - but he was very angry with me when he was little. The sad thing in my case is that my son seems to have similar MH problems, but at least we can talk about them and try to find a way to deal with them.

And something to look forward to: If you can negotiate this extremely difficult time with intelligence and compassion, one day you will feel as if a huge burden has been lifted from your shoulders, and you will be able to live and breathe and enjoy life again! Promise.

[Solopower1]

I feel a little worried about what I have just written. My experience probably is nothing like yours, so it's probably irrelevant.

Your post did touch something in me, though. So even if my 'advice' isn't helpful, please accept my very best wishes, and hopes that you and your family will come out of all this stronger, but happier, too.

[AnyFucker]

solo, your post will resonate with OP, I am sure

[FeelingLousyAgain]

Wow, thank you, Solo. What a really, really positive and lovely post. Thank you.

I need to go and sleep. I hate feeling that I'm the one in the driving seat, but, tbh, I am. It's up to me whether h comes home or not. I told h tonight that I feel guilty about asking him to leave. He said 'Well, you didn't do it to be nasty, did you?' and said that IHO I shouldn't feel guilty, that he doesn't blame me. He's not all bad, really. Maybe we're just rubbish at being married to each other.

to everyone for being here. Don't underestimate how validating and empowering these threads are.

[AnyFucker]

Go to mediation. I think you two (if H doesn't start playing silly buggers) could negotiate a respectful co-parenting set up.

[Yfronts]

This could all just be down to the depression? It may not be anything to do with your relationship really?

[Yfronts]

Sorry just ignore my comment. Just read through properly. I hope things work out for the best for you - what ever that is.

[garlicblocks]

... he's not a nasty person, etc. Because after all, they have half his genes, and they might identify with him.

I know this is popular wisdom, Solo, and I understand why, but it is sometimes NOT the best approach with children. When you tell a child their angry / controlling / withholding parent is a good person who loves them, you're telling them it's good to be abusive and that love feels like abuse. There are plenty of age-appropriate ways to tell children the truth. It's not necessary to set them up for a life of painful confusion.

All children identify with their parents. I identify with my psychopathic father. This doesn't mean we have to feel bound to them or be deluded about their true nature.

[Solopower1]

Agreed, Garlicblocks.

I did tell him what I thought was the 'truth'. But ime (and I'm still only talking about my experience, so have no idea if this is true for anyone else) my son needed to know that his father's behaviour was unacceptable, but that it was what he did not what he was that wasn't OK. And there were reasons (not excuses) for what happened.

And things aren't often one good person and one bad. I contributed to our situation, and his father wasn't a nasty person.

Another reason I was a little worried about what I wrote was that I didn't want to give the impression that I thought having MH issues (in my ex's case OCD and depression) was an excuse for this sort of bullying and manipulation. As others have said before, people with these MH problems have to take responsibility for managing them (with the loving help of those around them) and most people do that, without ever hurting or bullying others.

[Roxyfox]

I suffer from depression and I'm currently doing very well, however I did have a long stint on medication, it made me feel very distant from my partner in fact I felt so distant that not only did I stop feeling that other people even existed but I was no longer sure I did. I know that sounds unusual. Not to sound horrible but if your partner isn't even in touch with reality any more that from his perspective is going to seem like a bigger problem than your feelings about things. That's why he's being so insensitive he literally doesn't have the capacity right now to think about your feelings. He most likely realises that he effects you negatively and feels a burden as all he's capable of right now is taking.

He's jealous of your ability to be competent, it's really hard not to get bitter when you're depressed I had days where I could barely feed myself and then I'd see other people running around being successful, it feels like a kick in the ___ it makes you feel more of a failure than you already feel. 'If she can do all these things why can't I?' except you're stuck in this 'broken' mind and body.

Personally I think he needs to switch meds or come off them all together there are over 50 types of depression meds for a reason so there's plenty of chance for him to feel less numb. He needs a counsellor but he needs one that he can talk to properly, he might have a to try a few. You might have to help him sometimes, maybe make his breakfast occasionally to start him off in a productive mood, it's baby steps initially he'll need you to lean on then he'll watch him do stuff for himself again. It's also confidence he needs to recognise his own achievements in his own right and not compare them to yours.

I'm sorry to sound like I'm making it all about what you could do and not him, of course you don't have to help, but I just don't think he'll be able to properly participate in this relationship until it's under control, it might never go but it can definitely be more manageable.

[FeelingLousyAgain]

Thanks for your perspective, Roxy. My head is spinning...

[Mumsyblouse]

I think in some ways, the fact that for the last 10-15 years, this person has had depression is a bit of a red herring, in that I don't think it matters why someone keeps you in a state of emotional turmoil and distress and on the edge, I just know you don't have to live like that.

My husband had a bout of depression a while back, and whilst initially I felt bad for him, I also didn't like living with (and this is how it manifested in him) an angry, hurtful, critical, negative person lashing out at me because he didn't like his world. I put up with it for over a year before I realised that I didn't want to live like this, even if it did have a medical cause. Being depressed brought out the worst sides of his personality and they had to be reined in, not indulged or feared.

I would not live life like that whatever the reason, plus there are plenty of people living with long term depression (his is clearly long-term) who don't take it out on their partners or make their partners life a misery. I don't believe in sacrificing your own happiness on the altar of someone else's problems, because in the main it doens't solve their problems (he is still angry,depressed, blaming you, threatening to leave) and it makes everyone else miserable too such as the children.

[Spero]

No, you don't have to tell children their parent is 'good' but you shouldn't go the other way and point out what a nasty piece of work he or she is. The genetics point is important, children know they come from their parents.

What I think is clearly demonstrated by research is that children do best when told the truth in an age appropriate way. For eg 'daddy isn't feeling very well right now so he may act in ways that you find upsetting. But we hope he is going to get better. He is doing X and Y to make him feel better. Nothing that he does is your fault, he is your dad and he loves you'.