Why do I feel so much worse after standing up to mildly toxic mother?

[woodentrainset]

My mother and I have had a difficult relationship for as long as I can remember. She has struggled for most of her life with mental health problems (largely undiagnosed and something she would refuse to admit to) and sadly, I have borne the brunt whenever she looses the plot. When she is particularly low, something I do or say which is possibly a bit off will trigger an episode where she screams and screams, throws plates, calls me a bitch and tells me I am awful for not giving a shit about her, says she would be better off dead etc. This can go on for hours, sometimes days in various different forms (texts, emails, phonecalls). Then she gets better, never acknowledges what has happened or apologises and we go on as though nothing has happened. This led, a few years ago, to us not being in touch for some time, then we reconciled and things were ok for a few years.

Recently she has had another episode and has descended into full blown alcoholism along with diagnosed depression - both things are down to the fact that I have confronted her about how her episodes made me feel when I was younger and tried to put boundaries in place following her last visit when she was drinking heavily around the DC. This time I have had several emails (she lives abroad) telling me it is all down to me, that I am cold, unforgiving and that I need to stop punishing her. When she is like this I have learnt that she cannot be reached so I ignore her, however, once the emails started to become more constructive and talking about her next visit I sent one saying that I would have liked an apology and acknowledgement of the pain she may have caused me by saying such awful things. I thought I needed to do this in order not to feel angry but it has just made me feel really anxious - I feel as though I have kicked her whilst she is down and that as things were becoming more constructive maybe I should have gone with that and just discounted the things she said probably whilst drunk and irrational? God, getting the balance right is so bloody hard - I don't want to be a doormat and I don't want to let her get away with such shocking behaviour but if she is unwell maybe I should turn a blind eye? All I know is I am sick to death of thinking about it.

I have tried to keep this short but so hard to get enough context in that way. Thanks for reading.

[nicholarseparsons]

Wooden i had a mother like yours.

Eventually my own emotional well being depended on me realising that no matter what she said or did to me she could not do any more damage than she had already done - I was in my 40's.

She died suddenly in january. I chose a reading for the funeral - Dylan Thomas's "Do not go gentle into that good night". I substituted the word 'men' for the word 'women' to make it fit. I stood up and read it to the congregation. I needed to.

I have found other women who are as caring, nurturing and kind to me as I could want a mother to be. I feel sadness for her chronic unhappiness, bitterness and sense of unmet entitlement to have the world exactly as she wanted it to be. But the moment I realised that she was who she was before I was even born liberated me from any sense of guilt and responsibility for detaching myself from her and leaving her to her misery.

Your mother may never be who you need her to be. But that shouldn't stop you from being the person you want to be.

[fiventhree]

Right, Wooden here is a description of the (sometimes) behaviour of your mentor and or best friend:

? "When she is particularly low, something I do or say which is possibly a bit off will trigger an episode where
? she screams and screams,
? throws plates,
? calls me a bitch
? tells me I am awful for not giving a shit about her,
? says she would be better off dead etc.
? This can go on for hours, sometimes days
? has descended into full blown alcoholism
? along with diagnosed depression
Both things are down to the fact that I have confronted her about how her episodes made me feel when I was younger and tried to put boundaries in place following her last visit when she was drinking heavily around the DC. "

This is culled word for word from your own initial post.

Is this acceptable to you?

[Salbertina]

Oh Wild .. I get that i really do. I hope you're finding more peace now

[wilderumpus]

sounds positive wooden :)

re: badtimes' sentence - I didn't dislike my mum enough to cut contact... I love my mum... but keeping contact made me turn the dislike onto myself instead.

take care chuck and good luck!

[woodentrainset]

wilderumpus I'm pleased my story has been helpful. I can feel really self-indulgent pouring out my story and emotions on here but I know just from hunting through past threads that it is incredibly comforting to read other people's stories. In fact it is often better than counselling. The other thing I realise is that no matter what flavour of toxic our mothers are, most of us seem to react in the same way and are united in understanding quite how tough the journey is - something no one in RL gets.

Just to update on my situation, I have now heard back from her and she is telling me I have got it all wrong and that she is not abusive or manipulative, simply grief stricken - denying my version of things yet again. In a funny way that helps and makes me realise how stupid I am to waste emotional energy on her as she really will never acknowledge or say sorry for what has gone on. There has been so much great advice on this thread but at the moment the sentence that is sticking in my mind is badtimes saying "I stay in touch because I don't dislike her enough to cut contact". There is something so independent about that - sounds daft but it reminds me that staying in touch is a choice I make every day and that is quite a liberating thought. I am resolving again to not put up with any more of her shit.

[Mrsdoyle1]

wilderumpus, it is indeed a hard road to this kind of freedom, but personally, I have found it the only way to achieve any kind of peace with myself. Having said that I also very much 'grieve' for the mother that I have never had and never will have. It's hard to miss out on one of the most important relationships in your life, but it seems that for quite a few of us, it's a necessity for emotional survival. I wish so much that it could be otherwise, but learning to accept that this is the way it is and will always be is half the battle. A tough one, though, undeniably...

[wilderumpus]

hear, hear mrsdoyle.

[wilderumpus]

wooden you sound just like me! However I have cut off ties with my mother after she behaved so appallingly last year that it couldn't go ignored or excused (for once). she blamed me for her behaviour and told me to never contact her again... so I didn't. and a year later I still feel guilty and like I blew it all out of proportion! Is so interesting to hear your story and know that I am not alone! All my friends have lovely parents or odd ones that they put up with. But like you say, how they talk to theirs I could not contemplate doing...

FWIW even tho I feel grief and guilt at losing my family (which I am trying to work through) the critical commentary in my head about everything I do (and fail to do) has gone, I am more confident and assertive and have stopped having huge personal battles with fictional flaws such as weight. So for me, I don't want to go back to my family yet as I am clearly getting a stronger sense of self without her... but not so strong I could pick her up on her selfishness/cruel comments/ negative drinking habits and deal with the fact she might cut me out again at any time.

It was a huge decision though, to leave... I hate not having a mum... but have to know the mum I 'want' is not the mum I got, sadly. Really, very sadly.

good luck OP; a very complicated form of freedom is yours for the taking - but it is freedom :)

[Mrsdoyle1]

I really sympathise woodentrainset and badtime, and can especially relate to what you say about your relationship with your mothers. My mother would have been exactly the same in the situation you describe, badtime - she has to be the centre of attention at all times, and would hate to be upstaged! She's very competitive when it comes to having a crisis - hers is naturally always worse than anyone else's.
Woodentrainset, I really think you have done exactly the right thing in standing up to your mother and setting some boundaries. I had a lot of counselling in my thirties and really unravelled a lot about the toxic personality of my mother and how that affected our relationship. She has a mental health history and is alcoholic, but she has never faced up to her problems or tried to change. My seven year old son is far more mature and behaves much better than her. It was when I had my two sons and she came to visit that I really put my foot down. She brought her alcoholic then-boyfriend along (at least he's nice enough, despite the drink problem), loaded up with wine bottles and the pair sat and drank, with her becoming increasingly melodramatic, aggressive and self-pitying and behaving in an embarrassing way in front of my sons and husband who just didn't know what to make of her. I just wasn't going to have it, and I told her that she was not allowed to drink alcohol in the house again. My house, my rules. I put up with her rubbish for all those years, and I'm not going to tolerate it now I'm an adult with my own children. Next time she visited, she made sure she tanked up on the coach and arrived drunk. I therefore refused to go out for a meal with her and the children as she had wanted. We ate at home and my husband drove her and her boyfriend back to their B&B. I told her what I thought about her behaviour the next day but she refused to acknowledge anything and behaved as though she had nothing wrong which infuriated me even more. Whatever their problems, these women are supposedly adults, with choices. We should never tolerate their appalling behaviour for any reason - there's no excuse, so don't feel guilty. We are now adults and we can set our own rules, we don't have to tolerate their outrageous selfishness and irresponsibility any longer. I haven't had an emotional attachment to her for years as she destroyed all that but I'm much happier that way. She hasn't been able to visit for quite a while and frankly, that's okay with me. Sorry if I sound hard, but it's taken me a long time to come to reach this mindset and for me, it's the only way forward to escape from her toxic crap. Good luck to you both - stay strong and don't let any misplaced guilt get in the way!

[woodentrainset]

And to finish that sentence...I still need validation all the time that my version is right. I am ALWAYS asking DH "it's not me is it?", "am I being too harsh?", "did I blow that out of proportion?". I'd like to believe myself without needing that validation to feel like I've conquered it.

[woodentrainset]

Not labelling her to harshly at all Salbertina - I think if anything I make endless excuses and am too fair...it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that because it wasn't physical violence that it can't have been that bad. I know I was/am loved, she made huge sacrifices, had it tough and still did largely ok and actually she isn't nasty to me in the way some of the other posters mums on here have been. But when she goes mad, she goes truly mad and that is terrifying - one thing that keeps me sane is that she has always struggled with all her close relationships which is proof that it can't be me who has it all wrong. I have seen counsellors on and off over the years - some helpful, some less so.

So understand what you are saying Agatha...people often say "Oh yeah, I have a difficult relationship with my mum too" or, "My mum drives me potty" or "All parents are a bit mental aren't they"...so then I think I am blowing out of all proportion needing to go to counselling, thinking of cutting her out - it adds to the sense of me having it all wrong. But then I hear how they speak to their mothers (in a way I could NEVER, EVER get away with without all hell braking loose) and I understand more about functional parental relationships through my amazing in-laws and realise quite how far from normal she is.

[AgathaFusty]

Another one here with a similar kind of mother. I can so relate to this "much as I do think she is a sad old bat, and regularly describe her as such to friends (once I would have felt that this was a betrayal)". I'm in my forties and have only for the last 5 or so years been able to talk to other people about what she is/has really been like. I always knew she was different to other people's mums, was always frightened of her, but always felt that it would be a huge betrayal to say that to others.

I wonder if part of that though, is that when you do talk to others, some will instantly understand because they have had similar experiences themselves, while others will say things like "well, are you sure it was that bad................?", just because they don't understand and haven't experienced anything like it. That always makes me doubt my version of stuff again.

For me, what is working at the moment (although not without guilt) is minimal contact. I haven't ever really been able to challenge her, so I don't bother trying now.

[Salbertina]

Hi Wooden, sorry didn't mean to label yr mum too harshly, you're the RL expert...
Re grief cycle, not explicitly working thro but helps to explain -to myself/dh- my often widely varying feelings towards all this. Cold pragmatism through to little child
seeking unconditional love all in one hour day!
Its v hard, isn't it? Are you having counselling?

[woodentrainset]

So much great advice.

Salbertina have read about that book, think I might order that one too. Didn't know about the grief cycle, think I'm flitting between bargaining and depression at the moment. Have you worked through the stages with a counsellor or has it just helped you to be aware of them so you recognise your own emotions? Proper acceptance would be an amazing thing. I think she is probably extremely toxic too, but there are such spells of normality and she would so vehemently deny and be appalled by the idea that I thought her toxic that I term her as mildly toxic to make it not sound so bad...god, when I type this stuff I realise how strongly her voice is in my head all the time denying my version of things. It is like I am having a conversation with her all the time, in which she is making me doubt my perception all the time as she is telling me her version of things, even when I haven;t spoken to her for ages.

kiwi yours sounds delightful too but well done also for getting to that place of confidence/liberation. I want to get there too. Problem is, when she visits I am too scared of her to really nip antics in the bud as I prefer any real shitty stuff to not happen in my house so I don't have to throw her out.

[kiwigirl42]

I think to survive a toxic parent you have to accept that yes, it IS all about them and they will never love you or accept you in the way you want or need. They just don't know how. I reached the point with my Mum when I was pregnant with a very much unexpected baby (husband supposed to be infertile due to chemo!). I was really ill in early wks and hadn't rung her - she rang ranting about this, was told by DH that i was very unwell in hospital and she didn't bother ringing for 6 wks. I think I was more hurt she didn't care about our baby (now 12DS) and that ended any emotional tie/ expectations. It is the best, most confidence building and liberating feeling in the world not to bother unless on my terms. I am kind and treat her as I expext to be treated when I see her, not v. Often thank god, and nip any antics in the bud. But its a bloody tough road while you still have that emotional tie and feeling of needing to please.

[Salbertina]

Sadly, probably...it certainly seems a long way off for me!! You have similar realisation then, Mou?

[MouMouCow]

Salbertina, that's probably a freudian slip...

[Salbertina]

Whoops, forgot final and best phase, "acceptance"

[Salbertina]

I really don't think shes mildly toxic at all but really v much so, you have my sympathies! You have been heroically patient also.

Ive been advised to grieve the mother i never had- actually going thro stages of grief- denial, anger, bargaining, depression... Would that help?
"Children of the self-absorbed" also good.

[woodentrainset]

Wow badtimes your mum sounds nasty. I do like your response to her suicide threats though and will try that out. Well done for getting to the point you have done - I am learning quite how hard that is.

Rox - I have read the book and it is amazing. You know the whole part about getting in touch with/processing your inner anger and grief - do you feel you have done that? What did it look/feel like? That particular part made me worry I may be sitting on a whole pile of unresolved crap but I'm not sure how to access it.

Cogito - great analogy! Problem is, much as I do think she is a sad old bat, and regularly describe her as such to friends (once I would have felt that this was a betrayal) again my heart has not caught up with my head. I still desperately want to believe in the person she can be when she is strong and semi-normal and I want a mother who is normal, nice, supportive and who I can learn from (and this as I hurtle towards middle age!) that I don't think I truly believe she is batty. Indeed, some of my current sadness/anxiety is probably coming to terms with the fact that she is a mentally unwell alcoholic and may never change and that I have to stop expecting anything of her.

Thanks for all the replies, it really does help to hear other perspectives and to get some of it out. I am still struggling but feel much better than I did on Monday.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"how do you get to a point where you really and truly believe it isn't your fault and can be semi-oblivious to the onslaught when it happens?"

There's a scene in Toy Story where a furious Woody has his completely apoplectic You are a toy!!!! rant at Buzz Lightyear who stands there looking stoic before saying 'You are a sad, strange little man and you have my pity'. It sums up my attitude to anyone who subjects me to an onslaught. :) Stay calm and pity them for the sad old bat they are. I think badtime's description means they manage things in a similar way.

[rozdoylesnaughtydrawer]

I recommend you read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward - I am the most un-self-help-book person ever, but it is really really helpful to read about stuff you thought was specific to your own family as quite typical of toxic parents. It has really helped me to be able to separate their issues and shitty behaviours from myself and how to deal with them and keep yourself sane.

You are not responsible for your mother and not to blame!

[badtime]

Yes I am.

It was sort of an epiphany for me - my mother was threatening to kill herself, and I started behaving as if she was making a considered, adult decision: 'Oh, if that's what you want to do. But you should probably think it through...' You could see the shock on her face, just because I wasn't taking responsibility for her behaving like a five year old. Then I kept it up.
Mum: 'Why do I bother?'
Me: 'What alternative do you have?'
Once you stop apologising for their bad behaviour, it becomes second nature.

She is still a selfish cow, though.

I was at the theatre with her fairly recently, and I had a panic attack. She started crying, and I thought that for once she was showing some empathy. Then she said 'Do you know why I'm crying? Because I'm embarrassed'.

Old me would have thought 'Oh no! I am clearly being embarrassing and I am fortunate that my mother puts up with my anxious ways (which are clearly totally my doing and nothing to do with my upbringing).'

What I actually, automatically, thought is 'Total strangers usually come up to me and ask if I need anything and if they can help. My mother's response is to a) get embarrassed; b) tell me she's embarrassed to make me feel bad; and c) nothing else, no words of comfort etc. She is not normal. She is not nice'. (actually, the word 'cunt' may have featured in my thoughts)

But I don't expect her to be nice or selfless. I put up with her because I don't dislike her enough to cut her off (and I don't want to leave my sister to face her alone), and I am sufficiently emotionally detached from her that she can't hurt me.

[woodentrainset]

Thank you both - very good points, especially re being true to yourself and that in some way I am helping her but should expect no thanks.

The bit I really struggle with is that intellectually, I know this is not my fault but on an emotional level I really don't think I truly believe it - I guess that will happen after being told it is my fault for years and years but how do you get to a point where you really and truly believe it isn't your fault and can be semi-oblivious to the onslaught when it happens? Are you at that point badtimes?

[badtime]

Your mother sounds something like mine, but a bit worse. The difference may be that I started standing up to my mum a while ago (over a decade). It took some time, but since then she has cut down on her drinking, received treatment for depression and generally done some growing up.
You should not turn a blind eye - by forcing her to acknowledge her behaviour, you are helping her. Pull her up on everything, and if she throws a tantrum, treat her like you would a tantrumming child (ignore rather than sweeties, I would hope). Think of her behaviour as being childish; don't assume she is the adult just because she is older. It might, over time, show her how to behave like an adult.

Don't expect her to thank you for it, or even recognise that you had a part in it, though.